The Black Church: How Black Churches Keep African American Women Single and Lonely

| 07/20/2014 | Comments (491)

Black Churches – Full of Foul Frauds and Fiends?

Black women have an inordinate amount of faith in both Black men and Black churches. My position is that such blind and unwavering faith in either is misplaced. It is my belief that the Black church, structured around traditional gender roles which makes women submissive to and inferior to men, greatly limits females. Single Black women sitting in church every Sunday are being subtly brainwashed, soothed and placated into waiting without demand for what they want to magically come to them. Who is doing this to Black women? The male standing at the front of the Church in the role of spiritual leader, that’s who!

Black women should abandon Black churches and focus more on themselves, their needs and those of their children than those of Black men or a religion which Black men use to castigate and control an entire race of women.

Single Black Females in Church

Black females have long been considered the backbone of the Black community and the cornerstone of their families and churches. But what is the real price Black women have paid to wear this crown of fool’s gold?

An examination of any congregation of the average Black church shows that single Black females fill the pews. Results of a recent study “African Americans and Religion” by the PEW Research Center’s Forum on Religion and Public Life found that “African Americans are markedly more religious on a variety of measures than the U.S. population as a whole.”Church services in the black community

Almost 90% of Black Americans express “absolutely certain belief in God” compared to just over 70% of the total U.S. population. Two other important statistics gleaned from this survey: (1) 80% of Black Americans report that religion is “very important” in their lives as compared to 57% of the general U.S. population; and (2) 55% of Black Americans report that they “interpret scripture literally” as compared to 32% of the general U.S. population.

The PEW study also reported that “Men are significantly more likely than women to claim no religious affiliation. Nearly one-in-five men say they have no formal religious affiliation, compared with roughly 13% of women.”

The survey shows a distinct correlation between religion and social attitudes amongst African Americans. “African Americans who are more religiously observant (as defined by frequency of worship service attendance and the importance of religion in their lives), are more likely to oppose abortion and homosexuality, and more likely to report higher levels of conservative ideology.”

 

 (continued on page 2 below)

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Deborrah

Veteran social researcher, relationship advice columnist, author and radio host. Author of hundreds of articles on American and black culture, gender issues, singles, dating and relationships. Author of "Sucka Free Love!" , "The 24 Types of Suckas to Avoid," and "The Black Church - Where Women Pray and Men Pray" all available on Amazon.Com. Her unique voice and insightful commentary have delighted fans and riled haters for 20 years. Read her stuff on Examiner.Com, SurvivingDating.Com and AskHeartBeat.Com.

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Category: Society and Culture, The Black Church

465 comments
bnak
bnak

While I do agree with many of the things that Denorah spoke about today on the radio regards to her book and the state of the "black church". I do not agree that someone who hasn't been to church since she was seven years old is qualified to dictate the position of that shepard as it pertains to how that flock is led. No way! The dynamic of the church has changed tremendously over the years.

I truly enjoyed speaking with her but, that didn't sit very well with me. When you make the statement......"Im all the God I need"......I can't help but be reminded of the word saying that "Thou shall have no other Gods before Him"

gralan02
gralan02

500 years of Christian  and the Bible interference and falsehood has proven to be a failed policy. In the case of Islam, 1500 years. We are a Gullible people. I am embarrassed.

Nene
Nene

I go to church just to hear a different interpretation of the bible than what I might have. Other than that, I don't socialize with the people there or hang out with them. I arrive after everyone else, and leave before everyone else so I don't have to talk to them. I don't think church is "necessary" for spiritual development, but again, I like to hear a different interpretation. 

RenitaDixon
RenitaDixon

I guess I would agree with the article if I attended church in order to find a man.  However, I don't see church as a "dating field."  It's a place where I can worship God with like minded people.  If anyone attends church with any other agenda, I can almost guarantee, they are going to leave frustrated--because that is NOT why church exists.  It's clear you are only familiar with what I have called "fringe-church", because you have just enough information about church to sound like you know what you are talking about. However, I dare say that if you really understood a relationship with God, this would not have been a viable article to write anyway.

naej358
naej358

Just Wait Until That Homosexual Demon That Take Root In The Black Community...It's Going To Do More Damage Than Heroin, Crack And All The Rest Of Those Hard Drugs Combined!  It's Going To WIPE Us OUT!!!  I'm Telling You, The Black Church Has Failed Our Community Miserbly...Remember Sodum & Gomorrah!

gralan02
gralan02

I have travelled the country extensively(all the lower 48 state) and I will tell all of the black people, especially  blackwomen, that there are No Shortage of blackmen. There seems to be some concerted effort by the social scientist in this country to release this "propaganda" while encouraging interracial marriage. Every knows that there has always been more women than men. It may just be a better idea to put on our thinking caps and look a little deeper at those who are saying this and what their true motives are!

Clue: Present indications say that there's a Shortage of Whitemen!

Factoid: There are more blackmen in the Western Hemisphere than whitemen. 

gralan02
gralan02

TD Jakes openly admitted on national television that the core group that the church needs to focus on is blackwomen in terms of "FILLING UP SEATS". This is a "Business Concept" born by the Federal Government  reducing aid to the churches. This is not an attack.The CHURCH is running itself like a business and this is the way it  is to be evaluated.

gralan02
gralan02

After having read the comments below my message is the same. THE BLACKMAN IS NOT IN THE "CHURCH"

gralan02
gralan02

1)The Church wants their "Customers"(blackwomen) isolated to keep their coffers filled. 2) Many blackmen have fallen away from the church so THAT IS NOT WHERE YOU GOING TO FIND ELIGIBLE BLACKMEN.

BLACKWOMEN:The church is isolated you from the blackman in an attempt to try to force the blackman in to coming back to the church. Where are the blackmen? THERE EVERY WHERE YOU WOULD NOT EXPECT THEM TO BE! I guarantee they will be receptive towards you if you do not mention anything about the "CHURCH".

MonicaBackest
MonicaBackest

Well my heart is heavy for the young girls going in this the year 2013A.D. They have to deal with so much on the streets. What are they learning about being independant & self-supportive? Are they being etified to strive in academics, put themselves & their education at the top of their long term goal list? Are they being encouraged to have ambition & being told they can shoot for the stars & achieve their dreams with hard work & dedication? I sure hope so.

CelitaJamison
CelitaJamison

I don't know if I agree with everything that Deborah says, but I applaud her for having the chutzpah to air an opinion that's so counter to what the average African American believes.  The church certainly doesn't help women find mates and waiting for God to send you a mate really might leave you single, lonely and rapidly moving towards retirement!!  However I think this is a complex issue with a variety of factors impacting our choice of suitable (employed, respectful of women, faithful, etc) mates.

SamHawkins
SamHawkins

Some of us men are very spiritual beings…We [just] are NOT Christians! I do not believe that so-called Christian have a monopoly on GOD. Yes, the church is keeping our women single. Example: Every pastor I know is warning sisters NOT to date non-Christians. Entire sermons are centered around this fact. The pastors talk about being evenly yoked! If a brother has a job, educated and responsible, it will not make a different with some sisters if you are not a Christian. Read Acts 11: 26. Christianity is not our true way. Act 11: 26 prove it. Jesus instructed his disciples “Go not unto the way of the Gentiles!” Where did Paul (Saul) go? Even Barnabas parted ways with Saul because he knew that Saul began to get away from the teaching of the Elders. Paul traveled from North Africa (Israel) to southern Europe (Antioch). Everything I say I can PROVE with the Old Testament and New Testament. Why do you think pastors stay in the New Testament?... Because, the Old Testament, is talking about African Kings and Queens!

houstokid
houstokid

I must be a loser or in the closet man because I love taking my straight a** to church every Sunday! I need to hear the Word and I am not about to pretend I don't like going. The Lord took a long time to get me coming back to church and now that I'm there and I see the benefit, I ain't never leaving :)! Then again, my woman doesn't care; she loves her some church too. I do see the players in the church and the in the closet types. But, religion is a personal experience and I don't go to find a woman (even though they are beautiful women and I can't blame a brotha for wanting to mack). God gave me my woman so I'm forever thankful cause he knew I needed someone to watch over my crazy behind and she's time enough for me. So, I'm still going every Sunday; I'm the one in the shirt and tie greeting the first time friends :).

Egos
Egos

I have mixed feelings about this article because I've been to a number of different churches. When I became a Christian, I spent a lot of time really reading and studying the bible for myself. So, as I went to different churches, I was able to weed out lots of things and ideas that weren't biblical. So, I never really got stuck in the prosperity gospel trap, or the feeling that I had to be in church every waking moment, or this line that we draw in our lives between the sacred and secular. While there are places I don't frequent because I don't enjoy it, and things that I don't do because the bible says it is wrong, there's a lot that I do that is not church related. I agree whole heartedly about black men and church. There is a dearth of eligible black men there. I've met some really good black men at church but they are quickly snapped up. I don't go to church for men, nor do I spend a bunch of time with singles groups. The man I'm dating now is a black man who goes to church. He is one of the exceptions, but it wasn't something I planned. Women rejected him a lot because he is really short. But then again, so am I so its not a problem. A friend introduced us and it worked out. But that's the first time in 15 years. Many fell into the categories you mentioned. When I was looking for a man, I didn't go the club, etc because I knew that the man I wanted probably wouldn't be there. But I did volunteer, go to meet ups, looked online, went to the gym .... Plenty of men are all around, it just takes breaking from the routine. Men tend to be more active, and christian men might not be in church 24 x 7 but during the week he will probably work out, go to work, and will probably be looking for a tangible way to do some good in the workd. I looked outside of my race also. White and other men are often quite interested in black women. It isn't the majority, but even if it is only 5 or 10 percent, that's millions of people in the U.S. alone, not to mention other countries. I've been really blessed that the churches I go to are quite different than what you've described. For example, the church I am in now is teaching us to be leaders. We are assessing our strengths and weaknesses and our leadership styles. In other churches I've learned about finances and investing, entrepreneurship, and more in addition to being fed spiritually. Ive been taught how to dig into the scriptures for myself using several different methods. There is sexism in the church for sure, but I've also seen tons of female leaders who have been positive role models of women in leadership. I've heard about players but they don't tend to gravitate to me. I'm not too impressed by stuff considering I have my own stuff! I do appreciate my Christian brothers who do go to church. Some do have problems but that doesn't mean they will stay that way. Christ heals us and gives us the power to make it through, one step at a time.

blanksie_11
blanksie_11

I don't agree with Deborah Cooper on much. But I have experienced this first hand with black women. What's ironic is how Deborah always speaks out on women's issues yet she is attacked by so many black women here. It's poetic in a way. That's because black women hate being faced with the harsh realities. My white male counterparts argue with their girlfriends about a lot of things. But I've never heard them mention anything about religion. The black church is B-S. It is for individuals with slave minds. And if we stopped ignoring the history of Christianity, we would know this. The root of it is Catholicism. They fabricated so much just to get people to come to church.

 

Black women expect black men to behave in a contradictory way. It's not in a real man's nature to submit to doctrines and pastors. It makes him docile and easily controlled. God doesn't hear you better in church and God doesn't need your money. And to fellowship doesn't mean going to church. Black women should stop using a doctrine that was beat into African Americans as a reference. I don't give a damn what the Bible says because I'm not Christian. And most black women don't because they ignore the parts they don't like. Deborah, yes! Pimp preachers and vague, pseudo-spiritual teachings keep black women delusional and single. They may not be lonely. Most guys will have sex with an attractive woman. But he won't commit and be faithful if you try to force him to be something he isn't.  

Deborrah
Deborrah moderator

After today Mr. Wayne Jones comments will go directly into the trash and he is hereby banned from the site. Coming onto a privately owned website and threatening the owner with libel, slander and physical harm in written form is over the top and indicates someone that isn't wrapped too tight. I've taken screen shots of his threatening comments and the system recorded his IP address. So if anything should happen that requires legal intervention, I have the tools to prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law. This is a highly emotionally charged and controversial issue that people tend to feel very strongly about one way or the other. Those that have personal experience with being victimized in black churches have a very difficult time being believed or even heard by those that insist the Pastor is the right hand man of God. Discussing a topic and having a difference of opinion is fine, that is what we do here and on all social media sites on the internet. However, when someone cannot tolerate the idea that others have a different opinion, and resorts to threats of harm to make their point, their behavior crosses every barrier imaginable and they must be blocked from having the opportunity to make any further comments on this site in accordance with our Posting Regulations.Thank you everyone for your patience and future cooperation in this endeavor..

MichaelMahoney
MichaelMahoney

I've thought this to myself for quite sometime. If we look at female/male interaction at its most granular level we see men striving to be the alphas of their domain. Spending Sunday and Wednesday evenings listing to another man dictate how you are to run your household/life, etc...is not the average mans idea of achieving success, dominance, peace, etc....I can positively state that the average mans (black, white, asian) least concern is what some slick hair pimp has to say about how he conducts his life. Black women (not all, maybe a bit more than half) seem a bit hung up on this. I can't tell you how many times I've fit the profile of a "good man" with exception of my belief (or lack there of). Being atheistic in belief has alienated me from a significant portion of black women. Let your belief be YOUR belief, maintain that intimacy between you and your deity. Stop stifling yourself by making ''god fearing" such a stringent requirement for the ideal partner because I can assure you that this is the last thing that proves a mans worth and capability to protect, provide and love. These traits exist in all of us (to some extent or another). Me personally, I've had much success dating, unfortunately it has been outside of my race where the most success stems from and this disappoints me. 

SabrinaShaliseFreeman
SabrinaShaliseFreeman

Some of the points mentioned here are painfully true. Especially being able to place the men in church into four categories. Except, I'll add a fifth which is the abuser. I have complete faith in God but I have also grown weary in attending church for many reasons including the ones cited here. The black church has gotten complacent and spends more time putting on airs than dealing with the real issues. That's where my frustration lies. I don't come to church to pretend or be phony. Every sin known to mankind is in the Bible, yet so many topics of discussion are taboo in the church. If we can't be real in church, how will we know how to conduct ourselves in the world and reverse some of the strongholds and generational curses that our culture is plagued with???

TiffanyRodkell
TiffanyRodkell

So true and on point. We have to know God for ourselves and which direction He desires for us to go. God is everywhere, inside, outside of the church. I tried the religious men of God and 90% are just as messed up as the "Men of the World". Let's get to know God for ourselves.

Razzy
Razzy

This article is always timely and relevant. Black women really do need to get their azzes out of the church.  Christian women are the most naive and gamed on women on the planet.  (Or should I say religious women).  They are sitting ducks just because of their mentality.  The sooner women get their butts out of the church, the better off they will be.  Stop giving their time/energy/money and hard work to these pimping preachers.

Penguina
Penguina

What a load of hogwash. The church is not to blame for women (or men for that matter) remaining single or lonely.  Whomever wrote this article clearly does not understand the true purpose of the church (regardless of race.) The church is NOT a singles bar. There is one reason and one reason only for attending: worship and spiritual guidance. These attacks on the church are not only rude but ridiculous. If one is having problems finding a mate, they need to take personal responsibility and quit blaming other people and entitites. Besides, this article pretty much purports that there is something inherently wrong with being single when it isn't.  Better for the Black woman to be in the church than out barhopping or desperately chasing men. If they are doing it in a church setting then they need to stop it. It's that simple.

Marvaberry
Marvaberry

@RenitaDixon A relationship with God is a personal one, as it is with any living creator. It does not necessarily require a church, a building or other people. I was raised in the church, raised my children in the church but no longer attend or have a need in my elder years for the church or the type of social structure it provides. I agree with the author's observations. Only one who, like myself has spent a considerable amount of time studying and observing black religiosity could make such a candid and profound analysis of how our churches have limited the progress of the black community, especially as it relates to single and married women in the membership. In one of his most passionate sermons called "A Knock at Midnight", Dr. Martin Luther King raises several other questions about the social failure of the black church. 

Deborrah
Deborrah moderator

@RenitaDixon You are one of those that thinks church and God are above investigation and reproach. I disagree. Only someone who is NOT indoctrinated in religion would have the courage and understanding of manipulation and games of control to write such an article. 

Lastly, if the article were just about YOU, then your perspective and singular focus on yourself and what you do and how you view things and why you go to church would make sense. But we're not talking about YOU. We're talking about millions of black women that DO seek love and a husband that is "equally yoked" within their religion, which means within their church. Not sure why you think such a goal is improper. I think it makes total sense. Like if you want someone that enjoys sports, you probably go to sporting events and date those guys. If you want someone that reads, bookstores and book readings/signings/discussions and book clubs would be where you go and date those guys. 


Kwame
Kwame

@naej358 No proof of the existence of Saddam & Gomorrah but their is proof of child molestation which leads to sexual confusion, which leads to homosexuality. Young Black boys are highly targeted these days.

Ree74
Ree74

@gralan02 You have to consider however that black men are often DISCOURAGED from marrying anyone and you will often hear black men in their 30's and 40's with children who will tell you they will never marry.

Deborrah
Deborrah moderator

Your numbers are wrong. At this juncture there are more men than women in the under 30 age group.  So all those young women looking for husbands will have their pick. It's only amongst the baby boomer generation that there are more women than men primarily because of the Vietnam war draft. To me that is why there is an increase in genetic problems in children -- the healthy prime males got shipped off to war and died, and the rejects stayed and fathered children, passing their defective genes on.

ebonyeyes600
ebonyeyes600

 @blanksie_11 Who ever wrote this is ignorant!  You can continue to believe that foolishness about  the white man trying to control people or whatever it is against there being a God.  Keep on with your mouth and God will show you exactly who he is!!  I am a dedicated woman to the Word of God and I know what God will do and you just keep it up with your negativity against Him and you will regret it!!!! There is a God and He will take you out of this World in the blink of an eye when He is ready if you don't repent and be obedient to His Word.  Let this be a warning to you!

AnitaWills
AnitaWills

@Deborrah There are a lot of nuts who find their way to the internet. Be safe Deborrah. I am enjoying this discussion. 

Razzy
Razzy

 @WayneAJones Eddie Long, Creflo Dollar, Henry Lyons, do some research and look those people up Wayne, and see who is all up in the black church attacking and discrediting.

Deborrah
Deborrah moderator

 @WayneAJones No worries, I wouldn't pay you a dime. Since you don't understand what you read there is nothing I can do to assuage your defensiveness and refusal to acknowledge that these are very real occurrences in churches across the nation. No one can deny that fact. So your insistence that this article is attempting to discredit and destroy an entire race is interesting.  I can only surmise that these individuals recognize the truth in my words, and know that in truth lies the power of the Universe. That is why you are afraid of me. That's okay, never be afraid of reality. You can only hide your head and pretend everything is fine and perfect for so long.

Deborrah
Deborrah moderator

 @MichaelMahoney The killer is that when you ask these women what are the qualities of a "God Fearing" man and why specifically do they want such a fellow, they never have an answer other than it is what the Pastor said they should be looking for to be "equally yoked." So then you ask them what that means, and you end up in more circular conversation that doesn't really mean anything. It's sad really. Women should at least be very clear about WHY they go to church, what they get out of it, and what it costs them in time money and psychic energy. That way I would at least be confident that such a woman would have the wherewithall to understand the pimp games that go on in bad churches, and know how to extricate herself quickly from the nonsense. But when a woman cannot clearly communicate the foundation of her expressed belief system, I have serious "brainwashing" concerns.http://www.womenpraymenprey.com

Juice45
Juice45

I believe in God as well. My husband is a deacon in the church and the stuff he spew and do not live up to is amazing to me. He is a pathological liar a cheat and he tears me down with his arrogance every chance he gets all in the name of the WORD. He sees the words in the BiBle put repels them like teflon. I see so many of his church members do the same. Yoke mean to me, someone that is headed in the same direction as you. You may take different routes but nevertheless you trying to get to the same place. After being married to this man for 23 years and taking his bullshittery, I am open to the world and all type men (race, religious, non-religious) Just want one that believes that they are not the most powerful deity in the world.

Lyndia
Lyndia

@Razzy, everything you said is true. I was in the church for a number of years, (well over ten) and I saw what they did/do in the churches. I was a member of a church where the pastor promised that if you would give him two thousand dollars, he would give you ten thousand back. It never did happen. Only his friends to a return on their money.

Razzy
Razzy

 @ladeedaa "The Church is not to blame for women remaining single and lonely"

 

I have a friend who will not date this dude who really likes her because he doesn't go to church on Sundays. Dude is a responsible man has a successful established business as a barber and makes good money, owns his own home. He met my friend when she brought her son into cut his hair.  She's a single mom and he's a single dad.

 

I told my friend she is being a hypocrite. She wasn't thinking about God when she was all up in that dude she had that baby with and they weren't married so why she trying to act all Christian now. But see that's when she turned all hard core Christian on me (We stopped hanging like we used to).  Her mom made her feel so bad for having a baby out of wedlock she became all hard core christian almost as if to make up for her past transgressions (her words). 

So here this dude is, who has custody of his son and even though they've gone out a few times, she said she needs a man who believes in God and goes to church. Her pastor told her she must meet a man who is equally yoked and a God fearing man'.

 

So when you have a pastor in a church feeding women all of this 'hogwash' who do you think is responsible for women staying single and lonely and missing their opportunity with a good man who wants to be with them?  That passa up in that church.

ArthurDanielsJr
ArthurDanielsJr

 @ladeedaa Amen.  My sentiments almost exactly.  Not only does Ms. Cooper not understand the purpose of the church, but she fails to understand the importance of accuracy in reporting and getting facts straight.  As a minister and graduate student in theology with 2 earned degrees and working on a third, who's also been a Christian for over 28 years, I am well acquainted with sound Christian theology and what goes on within the church.  And after reading this article, I can tell that Ms. Cooper does not have a solid grasp of our theology and what the church teaches.  She presents a skewed and distorted view, and only the ignorant fall for this kind of sophistry and disinformation. 

 

For example, she takes some stats and makes invalid assumptions based on them.  Let's look at a few:  "Going to church is not making you more attractive and interesting to men."  False.  Christian men like myself are indeed attracted to and interested in women who attend church, although it's not so much about church attendance but having the right heart for God. And let me add that there's nothing more sexy than a black woman in a dress and heels, praising God in church or anywhere else!   So that claim is pure nonsense.

 

Next we have this invalid assumption:  "Going to church is not where you are going to find eligible bachelors to date."  Nonsense.  I'm an eligible bachelor and I'm dating, and there are many other eligible Christian men in church.  More pure nonsense.

 

And I really love this one because it betrays a lack of knowledge about what goes on in modern churches: "Going to church is not going to teach you to be fiscally responsible, investment savvy, or empower you to achieve greatness as a woman."  Now let's forget for a moment that there are entire books in the Bible (Ruth, Esther) dedicated to women of greatness that even men can learn from that are taught in churches.  But when churches hold seminars on sound financial planning, fiscal responsibility and investing (like my church - Victory Christian Fellowship of Santa Monica, Ca -) and Ms Cooper ignores this or is unaware, it becomes all too clear that again we have a clear case of someone inept at obtaining accurate information on this topic to speak from an informed perspective.

 

Even more insane was the oversimplification about the kind of men in church.  I mean, you really thing that a superficial glance at men in a number of churches only reveals four categories?  You gotta be kidding me.  Human beings are not that simple.  There's another category completely ignored.  Good Christian men who belong in neither of those categories who just want to meet, date, love and marry a good Christian woman.  Men who will love these queens as Christ loved the Church and sacrificially gave Himself for it. 

 

Now we are told in this article that women are encouraged to find a church-going, God-fearing man.  This is true.  However, it is not true that the "odds" are she will not find such a man in church.  Where else will she find him?  At a strip club?  The Playboy Mansion?  In a bar rolling on the floor drunk?  Nonsense.  While you can find a God-fearing man shopping at Walmart instead of church, the odds are you will run into more atheists at Walmart than a church.  I could write my own book on the flaws in reason and theology in this article, but I believe I have proved sufficiently that Ms. Cooper needs to do better research.  If not, I can go into more detail quite easily.  My hope is that maybe Ms. Cooper can humbly admit making some mistakes and ask for some informed advice or information instead of going on her assumptions and misunderstandings.  We all need to learn to humbly accept correction and improve, not arrogantly claim to be right when you can be proved wrong left and right.   

 

The Black Church is not to blame for its women being single and lonely.  Each individual woman bears that responsibility, depending on many factors and issues that were simply not addressed in this simplistic and distorted article.  But we are not going to solve the problem by creating controversy with "catchy" titles with articles of little real accurate and substantive content. 

 

 

topaz627
topaz627

 @ladeedaa this article isn't a attack on the church. The reason you take offense is there is some truth to it and you're in denial. Which line exactly does it state that being single is wrong? The women in church themselves are upset they are single and aren't finding good men at church.

" Better for Black women to be in the church than out barhopping or desperately chasing men. If they are doing it in a church setting it needs to stop."- This is why I have very few Christian friends, they are the most judgmental and condescending people on the face of the planet. There's nothing wrong with people barhopping, but the funny thing is you are so blind to how many people go to the club Saturday night then go to church Sunday morning. Happens all the time and shows how out of touch with reality you are.

jackie89
jackie89

 @ladeedaa Well said! And I do agree. In addition, I believe that the women in  the black church should also use wisdom and discernment when it comes to dating. I personally don't believe in just simply "waiting" for a man to approach me and get down on one knee, however it's also best to not be too hasty to jump into a relationship because of loneliness. In addition to asking for God's guidance when it comes to choosing a mate, I should already know what red flags to look for, what I'm willing to tolerate in another person, whether if he's genuine in his love for God (including his spiritual walk), has goals, is responsible, a family man, or what have you. I don't agree with the man bashing in this article as if to blame all the men in the black church for our singleness.

gnamwila
gnamwila

@Deborrah @RenitaDixon I am a Christian woman and I agree with Deborrah. Renita Dixon you have to ask yourself why every other faith ,non faith or religion emphasises on getting married or finding love. Even in the Bible God said its not good to be alone. What is going on in the churches is not healthy nor is it of God. It is not fair what these leaders have done brainwashing women having them under mind control. The pastors should be encouraging women of marriageble age to get out there look their best and find love.

Nene
Nene

@Kwame @naej358 "young black boys are highly targeted these day". Which might be why the church needs the mothers of these boys attending church...... easier access.

gralan02
gralan02

@Ree74 @gralan02 Yes Ree74, I've heard this from many single fathers I know.

I have noticed  they meet eligible women with children but just can't find a meeting

of the mind and situation.

Nene
Nene

@Deborrah Women under 30 are also more likely to date interracially than women over 50, giving them more options.

gralan02
gralan02

@Deborrah Not sure  that you've been around long enough to make such an

assessment. I recall that most of the blackmen who went Vietnam  were poor

and uneducated

Fuzzy Frisson
Fuzzy Frisson

 @ebonyeyes600 More proof, to me, why religion becomes a disease in the minds of the most vulnerable and gullible.  Hostility, threats, cod attempts at damning conversion and overall lashings of craziness in their vitriol towards anyone who isn't a Christian, let alone fundamentalist like they are.  Thanks, @ebonyeyes600 , for being yet another perfect exemplar of the reason hardcore and staunch Christianity can be more damaging than enlightening, enriching or even remotely appealing to anyone's life.  You and others of your ilk further tarnish the virtuosity that Christianity intends to espouse in its Scriptures.  Thanks to your irrationality, superficiality and ignorance of that very book against which you bash your head at least every Sunday, you act in the most unchristian - and thus hypocritical - manner, ridiculing the very faith of which you proclaim to be loyal.  I thought only God was the true arbiter of human morality?  Who are you to judge another person and damn them to Hell or oblivion?  The Earth and all mankind are not exclusively Christian.  Remember that.

 

Nevertheless, keep up the good sabotage.

AnitaWills
AnitaWills

@Deborrah @MichaelMahoney It was my mother and the women of the church who did all the labor, for the Glory of the Pastor. My father stayed home on Sundays, smoked Cigars and watched baseball or football.  I did not see any man in church that was marriage material, but I did see a lot of homosexual males who were supposed to be in the closet. Although everyone in the church knew they who they were. Some of the homosexual men (and women), did marry but it was not for love. A lot of these relationships were open, meaning they dated and even had children by other people. I did not feel spiritual connection to the people or what was going on there and still don't. 


brighteye10
brighteye10

Interesting questions....and how disturbing this is, that these women didn't have a mind of their own or clue why they choose to believe n what their pastor's says. Brainwashing it is! I can admit that I go to church on most Sundays and while their, I am reading my personal bible while the sermon is goin on or sayin my own prayer to myself while others r givin the pastor their unabided attention...(it's not that I don't njoy sermons bcuz I do, its juz that I find spirtual moments alone if I'm not n2 the word being preached) And with this being said...I don't get off on religion...juz a personal relationship with God. Religion is too contraversial & ppl b ready to take your head off if you don't side or believe their version. My most legit reason for attending church is bcuz I waz raised n church...and never experienced anything troubling to me. I read the word for myself. I've visited other churches and if I didn't like how they go about their doctrines I stop going. I don't believe n man healing me with oil or telling me I am going straight to hell if I don't receive the holy ghost by passing out or beating my head on floors & walls, much less speak n tongue....

Penguina
Penguina

 @Razzy Hi, Razzy! Thank you for answering my comment.  I'm going to respond with asking you a question:  Do you think it's impossible for a person to change? Also,  why would that change automatically make a person a "hypocrite?" Seems to me that's a value judgement on your part

 

In a sense your statement reminds me of  people may have been alcoholics or drug addicts but who feel threatened when one of the 'running partners' decided they want to get clean and sober.  Think of people whom you know who may be overweight/obese and  have a group of friends who comiserate and eat together, but never do anything about their weight.  Then one day one of the ladies decides she's had enough. So she starts to diet and exercise, and eventually gets fit and trim.  However, instead of being happy for their friend, the fat ladies feel threatened and they accuse her of everything under the sun from being 'stuck up" to being a 'hypocrite."  After all, she ate food before and now she thinks she's better than us? LOL.  Seriously though.  Turning over a new leaf and keeping it turned doesn't make one  a hypocrite in any way shape or fashion.

 

Would you call your friend a hypocrite if say she were addicted to alcohol or drugs, but then went into recovery and for the sake of her own sobriety stopped hanging out with the people she formerly partied with, people whom she knows could take her down a dark path again?  Probably not.  So why would or should she put herself in spiritual harm's way but dating a man whom doesn't share her beliefs and is very clear about it?    Consider this:  maybe your friend, despite years of having pre-marital sexual relationships that were going nowhere i.e. one nighters, "booty calls" et al, realized one day that sort of thing wasn't truly making her happy nor bringing her anywhere closer to the true love she wants in her life? Maybe she realized that fornication is a sin and wasn't the answer to her loneliness?  and she felt remorse for it? and asked God to forgive her? It can happen. Maybe she knows if she starts dating that particular man, she may fall back into a pattern of sexual immorality? Better she remain unmarried and celibate than to lose her soul!  Better to avoid the temptation than mindlessly fall head first into it...and regret it later. 

 

I'm sure you care about your friend and want to see her happy, but I think that it's very difficult for a person who is on the outside of someone else's life looking in to understand why someone else might need to make what they seem to think is a drastic step...cutting some folks off.   It's never been easy to try to go on a path that is one others can't or won't understand because they want to keep you tied to your past and then throw it in your face at every possible opportunity.  

 

The idea of not being unequally yoked" is not hogwash. A good marriage should be on a common ground. If a person's religious beliefs are too diverse or one isn't as committed as another, it can cause conflict, and be harmful to the believer.  All too often a person compromises their basic core values/principles in order to get/keep a lover, and then spends the rest of their lives regretting it.  That's exactly how some women wind up having babies out of wedlock or getting into  partying, drugs and alcohol in the first place!

 

 Instead of calling your friend a "hypocrite" and trying to put pressure on her to hook up with someone, maybe you should instead encourage her to take her time, and to not settle, and to wait for the best in her life...whom SHE feels is best, not whom you think is best for her.   There's nothing wrong with being unmarried.  Unmarried doesn't have to equate to loneliness.  There's many kinds of love out there:  friendship, platonic friendships, that sort of thing. I think society ignores that all too often in worshipping at the altar of Romantic Love/Sexuality.  

 

Also, regarding blaming the church for someone's marital status.  That is a cop out.  Emotionally mature people know they must assume personal responsibility for their choices in life. It's the only way a person can truly grow.

Lyndia
Lyndia

@ArthurDanielsJr @ladeedaa, I wonder what the black church is about myself. I know many people that profess to be Christians, however, the evil things that they say AND DO, I REPEAT AND DO, I could never be a Christian, notwithstandiong that I do believe in God. I just don't believe in the things they do and their money grabbing. Greedy people that say one thing AND DO ANOTHER.

MichaelMahoney
MichaelMahoney

 @ArthurDanielsJr Her statements about the attractiveness of black women going to church is actually quite accurate. The fact is religion among men has been on the decline for quite some time. Dare I say I've had the opportunity to personally get to know you so I can't speak for or against your character, but I gather from your post that you are some what rare in that you (a black man) holdon to religion so closely. Should black women be faulted for wanting a god fearing man? Absolutely not. But they should also understand that religion has been and will continue to be a declining priority among ALL men, combine this with the availability of eligible black men (not dead or in prison) and you have exactly the logic behind the authors composing of this article. 

 

No ones saying that you can't find a decent guy in church but considering the ratio of women to men are always disproportionately in favor of the former, those men have the luxury of sitting back and picking what they want. Its like shooting fish in a barrel..

 

I personally don't see why black women are so hung up on wanting a religious man as if thats where morality originates. 

 

Then we have the issue of Christians wearing their religion on their sleeves but being total hypocrites. If you like sex you shouldn't have to feel guilty about it. Same goes for any other "wordly" acts you choose to indulge in. Black women are at the apex of a potential social disaster and risk being out dated by those ethnicity who are far less concerned with spirituality.

 

This is not to say black women need to compromise their morals to get a black man, but more so they need to reevaluate if these "morals" are actually making them happy. Happiness is subjective and what we make it, having someone dictate a false sense of happiness in the form of church only further handicaps their chances of finding a suitable partner.

Razzy
Razzy

 @ArthurDanielsJr  @ladeedaa 

Yeah, a hit dog will hollar. Arthur is likely one of those 4 category of men. An old cat daddy, played out and looking for a good Xttian woman to take care of his old played out azz  or he's on a 12 step program and using religion as a crutch, A playa looking to get laid with the lonely horny Xtian women (nothing sexier than a woman in a dress and heels praising god) wink, wink.., or he's on the down low.  (He's too defensive.) And why isn't he married after 2 degrees, 28 years of being a Xtian and a minister to boot.  Goodness knows he's surrounded by plenty of eligible church going women in dresses and sexy heels. 

He's so defensive because Ms. Cooper is busting out his church pimp game lolol.

Deborrah
Deborrah moderator

 @ArthurDanielsJr First of all the article is directed at BLACK WOMEN. Since you are not a black woman, your comments have little merit and do not make much of a point.

 

Secondly, since you claim to be a student of theology (meaning you plan to make your living pimping women in churches), OF COURSE you are going to find fault with the truth of what women experience at the hands of men such as yourself. Why would we expect that you would be honest and say anything that would reduce the power you seek to have over a congregation of females? Additionally, since you are a male in a Christian church, you would ever be able to fully grasp what women feel about the messages they are given in church. Again, you are not a female and your experience in church as an alleged "anointed" person and leader of the flock is never going to be the same as a female's experience.

 

Third, this is not a research article, it is an opinion piece. The phrase "it is my belief" is how the second sentence in the first paragraph of the article begins, or did you with all your education miss that? There is no research necessary for an opinion piece (though I did supply plenty of statistics). The fact that you don't like what the article says so you attempt to attack the data presented does not invalidate the reality of the words as written for millions of women. Thousands of women since 2010 have read this article and testify that they've met these characters in church and had the exact experiences as written.

 

Lastly, I do not write to get your approval or the approval of any man connected with a church. I write what I see and what I want to write. The data presented here collected from women and observation is called empirical evidence, which is entirely valid and substantive research in any social science work.

 

The bottom line here is that you are bent out of shape because you, like so many other pastors, ministers and religious leaders, feel threatened by a black woman of intelligence and insight into the pimp game that is pastoring at a black church. You feel scared because you know that I am getting the word out about the lies you tell women. You are afraid because you know a woman  with a large following pulling the curtain back and showing that what women thought was a powerful wizard is just a man pulling levers, flashing smoke and mirrors and trying to make himself seem like he is omnipotent when he is nothing but a man like any other could cut into your income.


The more women that are hip to the game and keep their money to themselves and remove themselves from the influence of a pastor, the less money you can trick them out of and the more of them will be happily involved with men outside of your circle of influence. You know that will cut into your income.

 

Women have to understand that pastoring is nothing but a job and churching is nothing but a business. 

 

Being a pastor doesn't make you special or unique nor does it give you any special powers over women. You say that you represent God but God doesn't need any representatives, especially representatives that present themselves as anointed then turn around and lie, cheat, fornicate, adulter and molest/rape, pilfer and abuse then cry "I need forgiveness." God just is and doesn't need the help of sinners and weaklings that fail and are born from the same sin as everyone else.

 

Pastors are not special at all for that very reason. In spite of the fact that a lot of black women seem to have the roles confused, PASTORS ARE NOT GOD. So you men need to go sit down somewhere and stop trying to position yourselves as authority figures over women, gouging their pockets for millions of dollars and messing with their heads to suit your ends. 

 

I know the mind games and the bullshit and am not the least bit blinded by your fancy words and booming voices. I will therefore continue to speak loudly and honestly about the games played in the black church that harm women, and I really don't care if you don't like it.

My latest conversation: How to Keep Romance Alive in Your Relationship

brighteye10
brighteye10

@topaz627 u said a mouth full....very few christian friends that I have...if any. They Are very judgemental and it didn't start until they claimed finding Jesus as if he were lost. And it's what I've have said to many....its the religion that separates us from ourselves...causing some of us to poke out our eyes bcuz we sinned badly....Lol. I dislike when I say "how r u doin?" They respond by sayin; "I'm blessed, thx u" I respond back by saying, "Aren't we all" From here I avoided conversations with them if its not about our job duties. Some ppl separate from u, stop speaking if u don't belong to their church or if u show them u have a mind of your own. Observance is a main key to stay away from churches that have a unusual agenda....controling mindset.

Razzy
Razzy

 @jackie89  @ladeedaa "I don't agree with the man bashing in this article as if o blame all he men in the black church for our singleness"

 

Lack of reading comprehension skills abound in your post.  READ what you see and not what you think you see. And identifying the 4 types of men that frequent the black church is not man bashing, it's calling it like it is.

gralan02
gralan02

@Deborrah @Penguina 

Dear Deborrah,

The church that we blackpeople have been under for centuries in this  country was not founded by us. We have been under  this institutions so long that very few of us can see that is had now gone even more horrible wrong. Write you book and make sure that they true history of this church is revealed. There is so much that the blackpeople in America don't know about how the church was really founded.

Penguina
Penguina

 @Deborrah I suppose I should feel flattered. Just get my name spelled right lol.  and remember that I said at the end of the day it's all about taking PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for one's choices, not blaming others. No one says you gotta go to church. All I'm saying is blaming church for choices a person makes on their own is a cop out.  That's like blaming bars for alcoholism. Well you know what happened the last time alcohol was outlawed.

AnitaWills
AnitaWills

@Fuzzy Frisson @ebonyeyes600 I am a African American Woman who was raised in a Pentecostal Church. I could not wait to get out of that place which condemned people to hell and pointed the finger at everyone (except themselves).  I studied other religions and at least got an understanding that Christianity has no monopoly on God and going to church does not make you Godly. Christ is supposed to be the Peacemaker and Emancipator, and that is not reflected in America a so called Christian Nation. In fact once Christianity was co-opted they started killing or converting people to Christianity.  They used the Bible to keep black folks enslaved and then granted us permission to be Christians. But Europe's Christianity is like the cross Hitler used, which is the opposite of what it intended to be. The Egyptians were the originators of Christianity, and still have Coptic Churches. The Romans wrote twisted the Religion to fit their beliefs and hid verses like, Melchizedek, (the Magician), to keep people from having their own power. The Jews took these religious practices with them when they migrated to Israel. The Inquisition was carried out in Europe to convert people to Christianity and the burned people at the stakes who were non believers. Europeans used the Bible to justify killing Natives and stealing their land, and enslaving Africans. I was at my sisters church (which is diverse), and a basket was passed. I wanted to get change and the man who passed the basket told me not to touch the money. I looked at him and saw nothing but the Devil who was ready to jump on me for trying to get change out of the offering basket. My church and sanctuary is my home where I pray and keep myself spiritually fit. When I go out into the World I have compassion and understanding for those I see, and believe that the lowest amongst us have a place in the hereafter. That is all of the Church I need!

ebonyeyes600
ebonyeyes600

@Fuzzy Frisson Ignorant and full of big words is what you are. I pray that your eyes will be opened before it is too late. I know and have experiencGodsgoodness and you do also as you take a breath of air daily and wake every morning to carry on. Fear God!

Razzy
Razzy

 @ladeedaa 

You are the reason why a lot of black men don't go to church. They all talk about those crazy fanatical church broads.  It's a running joke.  And after reading your post, I concur.

Razzy
Razzy

 @ladeedaa 

First of all slow your roll and reign yourself back in.  You all off on some tangent, you have created some saga that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with my friend’s situation.  She’s not involved in any addictions, other than church addiction.  She was not one to be involved in booty calls or one night stands.  Her baby was the result of a long term relationship to a dude she was engaged with who was in church by the way, in fact he was part of a single’s youth ministry and she met him in church and he ended up cheating on her, so… such much for your colorful, imaginative story of my friends life.  Next time, talk what you know and stop up making up things to support your nonexistent point. 

 

The so called man of church was cheating her. Here she has a man who has treated her very well.  But he doesn’t go to church. That should not be a mark against him.  But if she’s so churchified like a lot of churchified broads are, she will miss what’s in front of her by listening to a minister who is probably lusting after her himself. 

And as fornication, all these churchified folks do that.  That’s what makes them hypocrites.  They cherry pick what scripture to live by and ignore the rest.  If they are truly changed, they’d live by all of them. And stop doing what they want, and turning asking for forgiveness all the time and claiming to be saved.

 

“Better she remain unmarried and celibate than to lose her soul’

 

What?  Child pluueeze, my friend is a young woman in her prime of her life. She ain’t hardly going to live like a nun.  Maybe that works for you.  So if you are living like one, fine, but don’t think others should do the same.  And since all ya’ll church women says God forgives y’all for everything anyway, then he’ll forgive her for having sex.. because she can always say she was weak to the flesh lolol.

 

Anyway, your long post basically amounts to this.  You come off as a fanatical churchified broad. I would most definitely not encourage any woman to listen to you. She’d cut her throat and be miserable.  Because you talk crazy talk even for religious women.

 

Razzy
Razzy

 @ladeedaa  @MichaelMahoney 

If there is even one bad minister out there, shouldn't he be dealt with?  You mentioned racism, let me say this.  Are all white cops racist?  Of course not, yet we never hear about the thousands of non racist white cops who don't racially profile, we only hear about the ones that do. So since not all white cops are racist and do egregious things to black folks, should we ignore the white cops that do?  Should we pretend racist cops don't exist?  Should we just close our eyes whenever an unarmed black person is shot by a white cop and give that white cop the benefit of the doubt because he might have been just doing his job?

 

See this is the logic you want to use with the black church.  You want to deflect and say 'well not all ministers are bad,t here are good ministers out there who quietly do their job and minister to people. So what?  That's what they are supposed to be doing.  They don't get extra credit for doing what they're supposed to be doing. And them doing their ministering has nothing to do with the corrupt church leaders who do egregious things to their congregants.  Good ministers don't cancel out  the bad ones anymore than good non racist cops cancel out the racist ones.  Use some since Ladeedaa.  (but it seems you don't have any) your brain is full of religious koolaide

Razzy
Razzy

 @ladeedaa  @MichaelMahoney  @ArthurDanielsJr 

'I wouldn't be quick to call someone else a hypocrite because I have no idea what their journey through life is like."

 

Well that's you.  I call it like I see it and you don't have to like it and I don't care if you do'.  Cherry picking certain scripture to live by, while overlooking others is hypocritical.  It's playing at being a christian.  It's a fake christian.  Most of y'all Christians are fake anyway, I'm sure God sees through the fakeness.  Go to church on Sunday, cussing out folks through the week, fornicating at will, lying, stealing, back stabbing, hateful attitude, lack of empathy, selfish, self centered.  

 

None of those are christian God like ways, and christians act like this all the time.  So yeah a big fat HYPOCRITE!!  Stop the fake christian talk.  If you aren't walking the walk, then stop calling yourself a christian and acting all superior over everyone else.  You're just a trifling knucklehead like everyone else who engages in the behaviors I named on a regular bases, you ain't superiior and you certainly ain't living your life close to that of being a christian.

Razzy
Razzy

 @ladeedaa  @MichaelMahoney  @ArthurDanielsJr 

"We fall down, get back up, fall down get back up' etc, etc, etc."

 

Why keep doing things in life that causes you to 'fall back down all the time. How do you progress forward if you're staying mired down repeatedly falling down and getting back up?  You'll never get ahead that way.  

 

I don't fall down and repeatedly get back up, I keep pushing ahead to actually achieve goals and get somewhere productive in life.  Only stupid insane people do what you do.  So it's not 'we all', it's you and folks like you.

 

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein

Razzy
Razzy

 @ladeedaa  @MichaelMahoney 

"Yes, there are bad ministers out there. Absolutely, but they are responsible for their action and will answer to God for them."

 

Translation:  Leave them alone,don't talk about them, let God handle them.  Just pretend like they aren't doing anything bad. It's not our place to  intervene and call out a minister when he is doing bad things and hold him accountable for his actions, only God has the authority to chastise a minister. So if you see a minister, molesting a young girl or boy (like Eddie Long), stealing from the church, and doing other heinous acts, you are supposed to just get on your knees and pray to God to deliver that minister from his sinful ways and that's all, you are never to talk about him or *attack* his church because that makes you wrong'.

 

Ladeedaa is a stupid dumb church thumping crazed in the head broad and any other woman who thinks like her should RUN to the nearest shrink because you have serious mental issue.

Razzy
Razzy

 @ladeedaa  @MichaelMahoney  @ArthurDanielsJr 

 

"Attacking the black church or any church for that matter solves nothing'.

 

Repeat you call me biased and prejudiced, but get the blinders out of your own bible thumping eyes.  You think any critique of the black church is an 'attack'.  You think the black church is beyond reproach, despite overwhelming evidence that shows corrupt black church leaders who've stolen church funds, fleeced their congregants, molested young girls, and done all sorts of egregious acts that are not in anyway shape form or fashion, what God would advocate.  You excuse all of that away and say people are just sinners and god forgives them.

 

Like I said, you are a silly crazy bible thumping fool.  GTFOH with all that hypocritical BS bible thumping talk.  I'll bet you do have a past.  Most broads like you who thump that bible hard, have a shady past and they feel the harder they bible thump, they can make up for stupid shyt they did in the past.

 

Well that's not me.  I don't have a shady past, i don't have to hang  my head down in shame and act like a nobody who isn't worthy. I don't have to hit folks over the head with all that bible nonsense talk.  Only weak folks who have something to hide, hide behind the bible.  You don't need a bible, you really need therapy. Too many sick in the head black folks who really need therapy, use the bible as therapy and don't get any better. Just sickening.

Razzy
Razzy

 @ladeedaa  @MichaelMahoney 

"It sounds  to me like you have a marked biased against people who have a belief"

 

Pot meet kettle, and going by your comments on this thread from your very first response to Ms. Cooper's article calling it 'hogwash', it looks to me that you have a strong marked biased for any controverting opinion that doesn't uphold 'your ideals' about the black church.  

 

Penguina
Penguina

 @Razzy  @MichaelMahoney  @ArthurDanielsJr Razzy, there are worse things I've been called than a "bible thumper."  I am not ashamed of being a Christian, and no amount of put downs or mockery from you will change that.  Now I would ask that if you respond again, please do so in a civil manner. I'm not being hateful to you. I'm trying to talk to you with respect that all humans deserve and I ask you do the same of me, regardless of your own biases or prejudices you hold towards religion or religious people.   At any rate, I think you are not seeing the forest for the trees.  Are you always so literal?  Don't you realize most people in life are not all black and white? There are lots of shades of gray in between. Ok,  I'll readily admit I'm not perfect and I don't always get it right. I have a "past" like anyone else. As it says in Scriptures ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.  But you know what?  I know that I am a sinner in need of God's love and mercy like anyone else, and I am doing the best I can to live for God. I'm sure your friend may be as well, but again maybe you're not trying to see this because of your own blinders.  You are right we should be all the way 100% but the truth is that it doesn't happen overnight. It is a process.  We fall down and get back up, fall down, get back up, etc, etc, etc.  I wouldn't be too quick to call someone else a hypocrite because I have no idea what their journey through life is like. Would you like someone to call you a 'hypocrite' because they look at you and see things they don't like or approve of?   Attacking the Black church or any church for that matter solves nothing. We all need to look inside ourselves and realize that alone we can't save ourselves. That's why we need the Lord.  I know from personal experience it makes all the difference in the world.  Anyway, I hope you have a good day...and that you'll think over what I say and not immediately get your hackles up.

Penguina
Penguina

 @MichaelMahoney Hello, MIchael.   People are people, whether in church or not. I know people who never darken the door of a church who behave in the ways you describe. It sounds to me like you have a marked biased against people who have a belief. Sad. That's just as bad as racism, homophobia and other types of hate out there.  Yes, there are bad ministers out there. Absolutely, but they are responsible for their action and will answer to God for them. Yet, one seems to not want to realize there are plenty of good ministers out there who daily quietly minister to people to many people won't make the time for. We only hear about the scandal and bad stuff.  The important thing, IMO, is that we tend our own gardens. That we do what we know God wants us to do, and not put the blame on others whether in church or out of church.

Razzy
Razzy

 @ladeedaa  @MichaelMahoney  @ArthurDanielsJr 

"nor calling someone a hypocrite simply because they don't approve of someone else's beliefs!"

First of all Ms. Bible thumping ladeedaa, I never said I didn't approve of her beliefs, I called her a hypocrite for being conservative about some things and not the other.  See your bible thumping churchified broads want to cherry pick what you want to be devout about. If you claim to be Christian then go all the way. Don't be conservative and devout about one thing but be "in the word' (bible thumper lingo) about other behaviors. That's being a hypocrite.

MichaelMahoney
MichaelMahoney

 @ladeedaa I've yet to see anyone attempting to enforce guilt over ones choice to refrain from extramarital sex. Not once did I say I disapprove of christian beliefs, I personally don't subscribe to them. The only hypocrisy I see is that of those offended by this articles critique of the black church. The black church seems shrouded in exceptionalism. The moment someone raises concerns about such an institution they are deemed "heathens", "traitors", "Sellouts", or are seen as to have some malicious intent. This is not just in regards to the black church, but encompasses any formal/informal critique of blacks in general. When we behave in such manner we cannot be taken seriously. Serious discourse is stifled because of such behavior and its a double standard that we need to remove ourselves from. Allowing any institution, group, organization to operate without scrutiny is criminal and a disservice to its constituents. The black church and ole Rev are no different. Stop engaging in emotionalism and naivety and seriously assess the organization you hold so dear to your heart. Just because you were indoctrinated does not mean you are not allowed to think critically about how blacks dictate Christianity.  In my opinion I believe the black church subliminally practices a perverse form of Jim Crow Christianity. Most simply can't see this because it is their "black church" they've been brought up to love and respect regardless of the misleading. Rev. Jeremiah White is prime example. The exclusionary behavior, the often preached political agendas they want you to help them fufil, etc.....it's not as great as it seems from the outside looking in.

Penguina
Penguina

 @MichaelMahoney  @ArthurDanielsJr On the same token, if a person values chastity and waiting until marriage, people shouldn't be making her feel guilty for that, either...nor calling someone a hypocrite simply because they don't approve of someone else's beliefs!

zipporah
zipporah

I never get mad when people use to term Xtian or Xmas

It is just SHORTHAND for CHRIST or the greek IXOYE

Razzy
Razzy

 @ladeedaa  @ArthurDanielsJr 

"Also why are you aking judgmental statements about someone for not being married?"  

 

I didn't make a comment about someone not being married.  Further from what I understood, the single women desire to be married, they want a family.  There is no judgment in that.  So I'm not sure where you're coming from with this comment.  There were news media all over tv depicting single black women who are longing for a husband and a family.  Nobody is judging, that's simply reporting on what is known information.  Nothing with is wrong with being single, but if a single woman wants to be married, and hasn't found success in that area then she is going to think something is wrong.  If her pastor is telling her to only date a certain type of man, then she is limiting herself. 

Razzy
Razzy

 @ladeedaa  @ArthurDanielsJr 

"Women need to use discernment and wisdom, and if i's clear the man is a wolf in sheep's clothing, steer clear."

 

This is a lot of double talk that blames the victim (the woman). "She should have been more discerning, she should have steered clear'"  If a man is hiding his 'wolf's nature under sheep's clothing, then he is concealing his true nature, how can you steer clear of something you can't obviously see?  How can you avoid danger if it's intentionally hidden?  If it were that easy to be discerning of men's unethical intentions we would have less women becoming victims.  Let's stop blaming the victim here and place the blame where it belongs solidly on the shoulders of the men who choose to prey on women in the church.

Penguina
Penguina

 @Razzy  @ArthurDanielsJr Razzy, the things you mention are precisely the reasons why a Christian woman needs to be on her guard, and avoid the kinds of "relationships" that can and many times will compromise her relationship with God.  Being a Christian does NOT mean being an "enabler."  Women need to use discernment and wisdom, and if it's clear the man is a wolf in sheep's clothing, steer clear.  This is why one needs to re-think the idea of dating just for the sake of dating.  Also why are you making judgmental statements about someone for not being married?  What exactly is wrong with being single?  There are plenty of married men who are also on the "down low" and doing things they shouldn't, but that is something they will have to answer to God for. It's not our place to judge, at any rate. Tend to our own gardens as they say...and don't try to assess someone's worthiness or character simply on the bases of whether or not he's put a ring on it.

zipporah
zipporah

Regarding the Tithe:

when women or others tithe to the church, they are giving to GOD-- and HE will judge the pastor in what he does, and it may not be pretty--my daughter is also only just a teen, and an adequate tither. She has actually seen the LORD move in her life since she started tithing

She was only getting a few days of work UNTIL she gave a tithe and is trusting GOD with her finances--in fact PASTORS need ot TITHE TOO to their neighborhoods, with help, money, food, etc.

zipporah
zipporah

sometimes, what many black women are into is CHURCHIANITY and not CHRISTIANITY==there could be a big difference sometimes. In other churches, or churches with a black pastor BUT intergrated would be better

'black churches' yield 'no fruit' or else we would'nt be in the place we are in at this time--too many out of wedlock children, along with 1/3 of all abortions---sometimes, many black women go to these churches is because of the worship styles--the pastor getting 'wound up' with his whooping (and musicians joining in), which a black pastor at an intergrated church just wont do==(ive heard some white pastors in 'all white churches do similar---couldn't believe it until ive seen it on youtube=except they don't have the musicians like the organist punctuating)

brighteye10
brighteye10

@ Razzy, that's one of the main problems "White Pastor" Omg don't allow me to get started. Why would white pastor have your best interest n mind....juz speakin out loud....smdh

brighteye10
brighteye10

Well said, Deborrah! Everyone is not strong to understand that they r being TAKEN. This world is made up of weak, confused, strong & controling MANIPULATORS! We have more followers than leaders. And y is this? I don't have a accurate answer but I do know if we had more leaders, we would have more responsible ppl, & less poverty existing (if most of us knew how to go and get what we are entitled to}. I deal with mind games daily as a parole officer but its all good bcuz I learn what I need from them, n order to stay on top. Give them praise if its earned and snatch credit back if rules r not followered. So Game is shuffled with a winner staying focus and its me....Paycheck & lively hood is my priority when my con artist try and manipulate me for his gain. Lol...hope I wasn't off topic....

samhawkins1
samhawkins1

@Deborrah

Some of us men are very spiritual beings…We [just] are NOT Christians! I do not believe that so-called Christian have a monopoly on GOD. Yes, the church is keeping our women single. Example: Every pastor I know is warning sisters NOT to date non-Christians. Entire sermons are centered around this fact. The pastors talk about being evenly yoked! If a brother has a job, educated and responsible, it will not make a different with some sisters if you are not a Christian. Read Acts 11: 26. Christianity is not our true way. Act 11: 26 prove it. Jesus instructed his disciples “Go not unto the way of the Gentiles!” Where did Paul (Saul) go? Even Barnabas parted ways with Saul because he knew that Saul began to get away from the teaching of the Elders. Paul traveled from North Africa (Israel) to southern Europe (Antioch). Everything I say I can PROVE with the Old Testament and New Testament. Why do you think pastors stay in the New Testament?... Because, the Old Testament, is talking about African Kings and Queens!

 

topaz627
topaz627

 @TonyaHoneySol  "So now we've moved on from speaking like adults to criticism?"- How adult were you acting being patronizing and basically telling people their opinion doesn't matter?  As the saying goes, if you can't take it don't dish it out." You must be open to hear other's opinions without being so damned rude and condescending." Likewise, hypocrite. You weren't very open-minded to begin with pretty much were hoping to guilt us with your opinion.  Since you feel "sanctified and saved", your words are law and apparently you're better than the rest of us? Please, get over yourself! Sisters like yourself are the reason why I stopped going to church.

Razzy
Razzy

 @TonyaHoneySol  @Razzy  @Deborrah  @topaz627 

You must be open to hear other's opinions without being so damed rude and condescending.... my spirit is far too peaceful"...

 

LOL, but it ain't that peaceful that you can't cuss at someone is it.  I always say those church broads are some of the most hypocritical women on the planet and the most short tempered.  Well... keep your prayers, I didn't ask for them nor do I need them... All churchified broads always leave with that 'parting shot, 'I'll pray for you'.  And they sling it out there as if they are really casting a 'curse on ya'...

 

Churchified broads all think alike and all have the same response in any discussion.. How boring. Yawn 

 

You telling folks that 'they Must be open to hear other opinions, yet how open and receptive were you to receiving the message of this article?  Not too receptive there were ya.  In fact you came out all defensive and in denial.. You want someone to hear your thoughts while you don't want to hear any controverting thought against that churchified broad group think. 

 

And if anyone is hating, it is YOU! You are the one who lacks understanding, and empathy for victims of the black church. You are the one who shows intolerance for those who have suffered at the hands of the black church. You are no better than folks who cover up egregious acts because they don't like it and don't want to hear about it. They think just because it doesn't directly happen to them, then it must not be true. That's how those folks at Penn State acted when they covered up Jerry Sandusky's pedophile acts for years against young boys. 

 

That's how the Pope acted when they pretended catholic priest weren't molesting boys.  That's how racist folks act when they pretend that racism doesn't exist nor does it affect black folk.  And that's how churchified broads like you act, when you continue to deny that the Black Church needs to be examined and held accountable for the negative effects it has on women and children that go there.   So you are the hater and you need to be gone...  Buh BYE

TonyaHoneySol
TonyaHoneySol

@Razzy @Deborrah @topaz627 So now we've moved on from speaking like adults to criticism. I've ignored several comments because I feel like the "conversation" is no longer important. And what the hell is this 'churchified broad ' mess you speak of so much? I mean really...GROW UP. Its more hate coming from y'all than lesson. My spirit is far too peaceful and I'm way too confident in my beliefs to continue entertaining this. Find yourself some professionalism the next time before you go posting an article for the world to see. You must be open to hear other's opinions without being so damned rude and condescending. What kind of person would I be if I wasn't true to my beliefs? Don't bother answering that because I'm going to unsubscribe. I usually like my discussions to be mature. I'll pray for ya.

Razzy
Razzy

 @TonyaHoneySol  @Deborrah  @topaz627 

"He is a black man and the article is talking about how the church is drawing a line between him and us".

 

Another churchified woman who lacks reading comprehension skills. No wonder ya'll are easily lead by the minister and so heavily influenced. If your reading comprehension skills and ability to process and analyze what you read and apply critical thinking skills is any evidence to go by, none of you all have the ability to decipher the Bible which linguistically is very challenging and calls for more than a 8th grade reading comprehension level."

 

This article is about how the black church keeps black women single and lonely.

Razzy
Razzy

 @TonyaHoneySol  @Deborrah 

"Sometimes you gotta sit and ask yourself "how much does your opinion really matter".

 

On this topic, your opinion matters about as much as a fart in the wind, so move it along and go post on some Christian blog or something where churchified broads like you can get together and talk about how great your church is and stay in denial of corruption that has gone on in the institution of the black church'.

Razzy
Razzy

 @TonyaHoneySol  @Deborrah 

"The pastor I grew up with who has a mixed congregation was WHITE"

 

And the way you are defending him, if he wasn't some old crusty dude, were you crushing on him?  A lot of churchified women do crush on their ministers, wishing they were the passa's wife and all.  I mean dang, you all up on his tip like you're his wife or something.

Razzy
Razzy

   @Deborrah 

TonyaHoneySol, This book is not about 'you or your pastor, but it is for the women who have been victimized by their churches and church leaders.  If this doesn't apply to you, then pass it on by and stop taking it personally.  Stop being such a defensive churchified broad.  Why are you even all up in this thread anyway since your so called church and minister don't have problems.  All these church broads talking about ''not my church', not my church, yeah well... who knows... You are being a dumb silly broad all up on this thread trying to deflect away from why this book was written. I for one know personally of women and elderly people who were victimized by their church leaders and  have suffered for it. 

I have no patience for some silly dumb churchified broad to come up on this thread and try to act as though this book Ms. Cooper has written have no merit.  So if all you have to do is come here and post defensive denial talk, I suggest you move it along before you piss folks off.

Stop trying to silence a problem just because you don't want to hear about it.  Take yourself elsewhere and go post on a christian website or something.  Your thoughts are not needed here.

Deborrah
Deborrah moderator

 @TonyaHoneySol  Well Tonya, if this article were about YOUR PASTOR then your comments would make sense. But you are not the only woman in the world, nor is your pastor the only religious leader in the world, nor is your church the only church in the world. Look beyond yourself honey, your world is very small. I'm talking nationally here - 50 states and millions of women, not just you.

 

Why are you so defensive? Are you trying to say that anyone writing about pastors and deacons feeling on little girls in church isn't true? Are you trying to say that no married pastor has ever gamed on a teenaged girl and raped her? Are you trying to say that no man in church ever molested a young boy in the men's bathroom? Are you trying to say that no old people in church have ever been taken to the cleaners by their church leaders?

 

See, that's what I mean. You refuse to acknowledge the truth of the conversation and steadfastly hold onto your fantasy that the black church in its entirety should be above reproach, examination or condemnation. I am saying let's work together and ferret out the creeps, the liars, the game players, the false prophets, the users and the con men. Let's get them OUT of churches and into prison where they belong.

 

I would think a true woman of God would want churches cleaned out and all charalatans banished. But instead what I am seeing from a great many black women is a blind allegiance to ALL pastors and ALL churches, no matter what awful things they've done in the past. Instead you want to (typically) switch the conversation from men over to women by talking about the color of their hair??Really?? Wow. That's so unoriginal and so typical of the church lady thinking. Protect the pastor at all costs and throw women and children under the bus.

 

Well lady, that's not how I roll. My opinion matters greatly to me and all those that need my help recognizing what is going on in the place they give thousands of dollars of money to per year while getting nothing in return.

 

My opinion matters greatly to me and all the young mothers and their children that can avoid the experience of sexual assault or molestation in church because they read my book and have the tools to protect themselves.

 

My opinion matters because these men have gamed on and pimped black women in churches for decades using God and Jesus to do it, and NO ONE HAS STOOD UP TO THEM BUT ME.

TonyaHoneySol
TonyaHoneySol

 @Razzy Oh yea the Black Church needs to be attacked because that's the worse thing going on right now. NOT. There is so much more degrading maddening things going on than this. I understand this is what the article was about but if people choose to go to church to receive their word then so be it. 

 

My pastor has never said anything about waiting for a man to come to you. That is NOT WHAT ITS ABOUT. The pastor I grew up with who has a mixed congregation was WHITE. @Deborrah is bashing this thing called a black church because we, black people, always find the worse thing to say about our own people while they are walking around praising everyone else and trying to wear their hair. Look at half of your friends who are right alongside of you bashing the" Black Church" and wonder why they're wearing long brown or blonde hair... then figure out why we self-deprecate more than we appreciate. 

 

I don't want to argue. We are all entitled to an opinion. Sometimes you gotta sit and ask yourself "How much does your opinion really matter?"

topaz627
topaz627

 @TonyaHoneySol   First thing you need to get straight is I'm an adult, not a child and can form my own opinions so it's unnecessary to chastise me. secondly I have seen wrong-doing in the the black church for years, not that Christianity is wrong but people are being hustled for their money and time. The bible does point out to be on the lookout for false Prophets and there is way too many nowadays. If you believe in your "perfect churches" so much, fine then support your Creflo Dollars and Bishop Eddie Longs then but don't be upset you believed these fools. They'll drag you right  down to hell with them.

Razzy
Razzy

 @TonyaHoneySol  @Deborrah  @topaz627 

"I'm afraid this article does seem like a huge attack on the black church."

 

And so what?  The black church needs to be attacked.  So much corruption has run rife for decades in the black church. It is not beyond reproach. No transparency at all, lots of tomfoolery going on in there, everything going on but the business of God.

Deborrah
Deborrah moderator

 @TonyaHoneySol 

That is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it, but I am certainly  not “losing credibility” by ignoring a man’s complaints about an issue that is 100% female. To me it is the same as men weighing in on whether or not women should have the right to birth control or abortion! To me it is the same as a man telling women that they don't have cramps when they have a menstrual cycle and its all in their head!  None of this is his business, nor his concern, nor his body. When an article is written that addresses the issues which affect “African American Women” I have the right to ignore the words of any man on the issue because the article is not about MEN.

Secondly, the article is not an attack on black churches, UNLESS those churches have leaders that are behaving in the manner outlined in the piece. Just like any other criminal act, if you aren’t doing the crime being discussed, then the conversation is not about YOU.

Lastly, the status of being single is a plague by those women’s own definition. They don’t want to be single. I don’t care personally because I love being single, but not every woman does. And if a woman wants to be married, and she is in church doing what her Pastor instructs a Proverbs 31 woman to do, and she’s doing her works and praying and being a Godly woman year after year, decade after decade, yet no husband is coming to her… well she is going to eventually feel disappointed, broken hearted and wonder what she is doing wrong. In other words, she will feel cursed or plagued by her single status.

Your thinking is kinda “off” if you got anything else out of this article.

 

TonyaHoneySol
TonyaHoneySol

 @Deborrah You're losing credibility by telling this man his words have no merit because the article is directed to women. All comments are points of view should be welcomed especially by a "journalist" such as yourself. He is a black man and the article is talking about how the church is drawing a line between him and us. 

 

Dear @topaz627 , I'm afraid this article does seem like a huge attack on the black church. And it also portrays the status of being single as some sort of plague. Don't be naive.

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