The “On Point” Black Man, Leadership and Submission
I’ve shared several exchanges recently with a handsome fellow (let’s call him Don), about black male/female relationships. A point of somewhat tense discussion was Don’s belief that successful Black women intentionally choose men that are beneath them in education and accomplishment. His reasoning: such women seek to feel superior, have the upper hand, and be in control of both the man and the relationship.
“She avoids the ‘on point’ man because doesn’t want to be submissive or have a man she feels is her equal lead her in any way, so she chooses someone unqualified to lead,” he concluded.
Don also expressed the belief that a man with his stuff together financially, educationally and physically (what he referred to as being “on point”) would never allow a woman to control the relationship. Women were not qualified to lead a relationship he said with fervor. “On point” men will not compromise on this, he explained.
Perhaps that is the true reason professional, educated and successful Black women can’t find a man he postulated… such women refuse to submit and be feminine. Instead these types of women attempt to compete with their dates/partners in some sort of “I can do it as well as you can” male-style pissing contest.
(clearing throat)… I have to agree with him there ladies.
I’ve told women many times that a date is not a job interview! In the world of romance a woman’s degrees, salary and professional experience are not qualifiers for the job of “wife” and don’t mean a hill of beans to a man looking for love and commitment. He is looking for you to smell good, look pretty, make him laugh, and show him that you are a loyal, nurturing and supportive WOMAN that he will be happy to rush home to.
So it always amazes me when women write my advice column trying to figure out how to attract a man. “I want to get married” they whine in frustration. “Where are all the GOOD BLACK MEN?” they lament.
Inquiries into what it is they are looking for garner a responsive list of 879 things the man must have, be, do and say. My follow-up question to this endless wish list is always “what is it that you bring to the relationship?”
These beautiful women then list the qualities they offer to a man as “own my own home, have great credit, have an MBA, am a God-fearing Christian woman, make $100K annually, no children, and look pretty good too.”
That’s when the stupefied look appears on my face.
Ladies, do you realize that not one of the things you’ve listed make you a candidate for a wife and in some instances, not even a date? Do you realize guys who feel they are “on point” (and therefore superior to the average guy in terms of ambition, goals and a plan for himself), will not be at all impressed by your list of accomplishments and material goods?
An “on point” man looking for a partner doesn’t care about your investment portfolio, your education or your CV – he wants to know what kind of woman you are and if you are willing to pick up a bat and play on his team. He is looking for you to follow his lead, trusting that he will take you both where you need to be. He wants you to believe in him, have confidence in his decision-making abilities, and be on board with the majority of his ideas because you find them to be as exciting and full of promise as he does.
Submission for Women… WTF?
Readers familiar with me know that I have a real problem with the word “submission.” The concept of some woman blindly allowing a man to lead her through life just because he believes his testicles and Johnson provide him with knowledge and skills and make him superior to females in every way makes me barf. To me such a “leadership” style is nothing more than a tyrannical demand for dictatorial control. Expecting a woman with good sense to sign on for that type of relationship in 2010 is a ridiculous notion.
However, there are men that are such solid guys, so confident, loving, fair, logical and purposeful that they are elevated to leader without ever having to say a word. These guys possess a quiet strength and sound judgment, are so trusted and inspirational that both MEN AND WOMEN willingly follow his lead.
These leaders certainly have a plan, but they ask questions and get input from others before executing them. I’ve noticed that all true leaders listen well, and respect those around them as being valuable and important. Those following these leaders maintain a strong belief in his fairness and leadership. Even though a decision that isn’t a fan favorite may be the ultimate outcome, those that follow this man remain happy and content.
I believe the guy that inspires loyalty and makes women feel psychologically safe is the one that women seek to partner with. He is also the guy that women happily submit to.
Can “On-Point” Men Offer Satisfying Relationships to Women?
The statement that a man who deems himself to be “on point” will flatly refuse to compromise was rather alarming. Let me tell you why:
Some years ago I lost the man I loved in an auto accident. At that moment all the plans I’d made for my life went up in smoke. I had to learn the hard way that life is never going to be the smooth road we want it to be. Instead, life is full of potholes and cliffs, sharp left turns, slippery slopes and mountains to climb. To be successful, we’d better be very flexible in how we handle ourselves as we navigate through the maze!
In other words, life is not rigid or fixed, nor is it black and white… life is 99% gray. Thus, a relationship where a man offers no compromise, no flexibility, and a complete unwillingness to work with his woman as a team is a relationship that will fail, leaving them both heartbroken.
Men who INSIST on being placed in the leadership role (by threats, coercion, brute force, or guilt) must remember that they were never elected to be ruler and that their leadership is more akin to a coup. And when you take power via a coup, you can bet as soon as the populace gets an opportunity, your government will be overthrown and your ass killed.
(see page 2 below)
Deborrah
Veteran social researcher, relationship advice columnist, author and radio host. Author of hundreds of articles on American and black culture, gender issues, singles, dating and relationships. Author of "Sucka Free Love!" , "The 24 Types of Suckas to Avoid," "The Black Church - Where Women Pray and Men Pray," and "Why Vegan is the New Black" all available on Amazon.Com. Her unique voice and insightful commentary have delighted fans and riled haters for 20 years. Read her stuff on SurvivingDating.Com and AskHeartBeat.Com.
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Category: Society and Culture
Why can’t they sumbit to us? What’s wrong with a woman controlling the relationship for a change? We have been domicile and willing to try the whole traditional role relationship for centuries and they can’t get their shit right!! Hell, society wouldn’t be in the tumultous upoar that it’s in, if men could get it right. Obviously, they can’t, so why not completely reverse the roles?
My name is Deborrah Cooper and I cosign on this message.
^^5^^ At BusyVixen! I co-sign along with Ms. Cooper. Men can’t run shyt, they are just the figureheads when it comes to a relationship. Women already do all the work. So hell yeah, men need to go somewhere and sit down with this on point mess, which translates to them: staying out of jail and having a job. Ugh. low standards.
Why can’t we be equal partners? What’s the difference in a dollar bill and four quarters? Seriously, reading these comments is scary!! What’s this whole power trip thing about?!?!? What’s wrong with harmony?? This some real serious euro, linear thinking right here. You sisters totally bit the bait on this feminism thing. I bet most of you refer to God as “He”. So if you believe God is a man, are you upset with Him too?
This other Elle shares more than just my name. I completely agree with her. First, I am not a child nor am I an animal so I don’t feel like I need a leader in my personal relationships. I’d be extremely hesitant to entertain the notion of being involved with any man that feels like he needs to “lead” things. I’m not about that.
I honestly don’t understand why a man OR a woman feels like they need to “lead” the relationship. I guess I don’t want a husband after all – I want a partner. I want someone that supports me and that I in turn support. I want someone that has their own strengths and qualities that they bring to the relationship that complement what I bring to the relationship. I reject the patriarchal notion that men have to be in control of families and male-female relationships, but I also don’t see how swinging the complete opposite way benefits anybody either.
I think its true that what a man looks for in a woman for a wife are different from what a woman looks for in a man for a wife. If a man came to a date sounded off his credit score, home ownership, education level, etc. a woman is going to see him as a person with great potential for husband material. That is because women often desire a husband to be a provider where most men aren’t looking for a provider in a wife. They are looking for a lover, a nurturer, a supporter, and a partner. So I agree that women should bring their “woman-ness” to the table when meeting a man. They should bring out the part of themselves that a man can’t find anywhere else in this world except with you … potentially HIS WOMAN.
Now, I to have a problem with this word submit as well. I think submit or submission denotes hierarchy in a relationship and I think over the course of a long term relationship or marriage there will be different times when both partners will serve a leadership role. The key in my opinion is have two individuals with leadership qualities that can make and execute decision successfully for themselves and for the family/relationship.
With trust in any relationship comes the ability to support, cooperate, and express loyalty to the other person because that trust also includes trust that this other person has the best interest of the relationship in mind when doing anything. To me, that does not speak of submission but trust.
Great article!! I agree whole-heartedly!!
Excellent post, I agree with everything you said.
Cloudscape wrote: “Excellent post, I agree with everything you said”.
No you don’t cloudscape so stop it, in your original post, you said that women have lost the art of letting a man think that an idea originates with him’. According to your way of thinking how a relationship is run, women have to dumb themselves down so a man can feel like a man in a leadership role.
Ally’s post denotes cooperation and compromising between couples where the roles are shared and the couple recognizes and utilizes the strengths of the other for the overall success of the relationship.
Your stance is that women have no voice except through the man and it is her duty to let the man have the say so, even if he doesn’t know what the fuk he’s talking about’ so long as he gives the appearance that he does, which he gets because the woman props him up in the leadership role. So stop it.
Uh, I said that it was an excellent post and that I agreed with everything that she said because I did. I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t try to put words in my mouth.
Submissive is a pretty loaded word and when I look at some black women who don’t have a man they seem to have forgotten the time honored tradition of letting the man think that he came up with an idea so that she can get what she wants.
Here’s the breakdown ladies,
1. I don’t have to pick you. Regardless off all of the other different types of women out there you are competing against other women, including black.
2. If a man is on point you might not be able get to him because he knows he doesn’t have to deal with what he doesn’t like. Kids out of wedlock, bounce. Weave, bounce. Stank, confrontational attitude, bounce. Overweight, no matter how much you say black men like thick women, I know what thick is. Serena Williams is thick, Monique is fat, bounce.
3. If I’m not attracted to you then your education doesn’t mean squat to me. Go home and look at your degree hanging on your wall by yourself, bounce.
And to be preemptive:
Go ahead and use ad homenems like,
you’re probably fat
you’re probably on the downlow
I wouldn’t want you anway
You’re probably ugly
You hate black women
You hate you’re mother
We carried you through slavery
You’re a weak black man
You can’t deal with a strong, independent black woman.
Y’all need to start listening to what black men are saying if you want to catch the on point brothers. Otherwise, keep raising kids with out Ray-Ray and Pookie.
Cloudscape,
What about men such as Pookie who don’t have a woman who is ‘on point’ what is your advice to them? Men who sit back and proclaim they are ‘such good catches’ but whine about how the women they want ignore them for the playas? Lots of men like him wandering around.
Also your unfair assessment that all of these negative behaviors are found solely in black women which is why they don’t have a man is plain untrue and biased and shows your ‘stank attitude’ and prejudice against black women. You act as if nonblack women are without fault and beyond reproach and their behavior is exemplary when in fact, most times when I see a black dude with a nonblack woman on his arm, she is the equivalent of ‘trailer trash’. Black men expect black women to be perfect, but they are so thrilled that they can pull a nonblack woman, that they usually take the bottom of the barrel ones. The ones that nonblack men won’t even date themselves.
Whereas when you see a black woman date a nonblack man, he will be a man who ‘On Point’ and doesn’t expect accolades for being responsible. In fact, he exceeds being simply ‘on point’ and considers that as what a man is supposed to do, and nothing special.
See the double standard? Most black men will wife up a Kim Kardashian but will turn around and call a black woman triflin if she has more than 3 lovers. Most brothas will wife up an ex playboy hoochie mama white woman, with baby daddies, but will turn around and put down a sistah who has one child.
Most brothas will wife up a nonblack woman with no education, but all she has going for her is her looks, and she has a stank gold digging attitude, but guy will turn around and put down a black woman if he has to pay for her on a date.
So you guys are full of it with your hypocrisy and double standards. You want black women to be perfect, when you yourself fall way below standards and compare your success to ‘substandard level. You expect black women to display character traits that you yourself don’t even meet. The black man could be Pookie down by the car wash with 5 babies by 3 baby mamas, and still trust to turn his nose up at a black woman who has no babies, but is holding it down, is educated and financially successfully. He will say, ‘she has a stank attitude’. (Of course he gets to decide what ‘stank attitude is,and usually it is her refusal to cater to his sorry butt).
So miss me with the double standards assessment.
Again until Brothas have their shyt together as a collective and can stop with the field Nikka attitude when it comes to what they look for in nonblack women and black women, Sistas who are intelligent/educated/successful and have their shyt together could care less what brothas, with ‘your stank attitude towards black women, Cloudscape have to say. Because you’re not saying anything worthwhile.
Congratulations!
Pookie doesn’t need a woman to be on point, that’s not his agenda, he wants her to be hot. Not good looking with a masters degree doesn’t mean anything to him.
You’re right there are lots of whiny pointdexters wandering around but when some women decide that they need them they’ve moved on.
I wouldn’t bother trying to wife up Kim K. and I can’t get upset at a grown woman who’s had more than three different lovers. Three kids by three different lovers? I’m out.
If you go back and read what I said, at no point did I say that it applied only to black women. The woman could be green with blue spots but if she’s got a kid out of wedlock I’m out.
I can only speak for myself but I’m not “thrilled” when I’m not dating a woman who’s not black. I’m “thrilled” to be dating a woman that likes me.
If I see a black woman who’s dating a man who’s not black I don’t care. If they are happy then I am happy for both of them.
I’ve got no problem paying for a date, not an issue.
Um, so basically, you hit number four in the ad hominems with your critique.
So go ahead and be intelligent/educated/successful while on point brothers marry Joselita. You can be angry and alone.
Don’t like the weaves.
Don’t like the weight.
Don’t like the attitude.
Don’t like the kids out of wedlock.
Start listening or stay alone, y’all ladies pick.
Congratulations.
Cloudscape: “Start listening or Stay alone, ya’ll ladies pick.
Congratulations”
You say this as though ‘your dislikes’ apply to ALL men. You don’t speak for all men Cloudscape as much as you’d like to think you do. Your dislikes are solely your own. For everything you don’t like, there are plenty of men who are fine with those things and they’re not dealbreakers with a woman they are interested in.
So again miss me with the controlling negative attitude towards black women and speaking as if ‘your own particular checklist’ determines if a woman will be alone or not. It simply means she just won’t be with you.
She can be with someone else who is just fine with the woman she is, if she so chooses. So Pluueeze. I’m sure there are plenty of things women don’t like about you, but you don’t determine whether a woman will be alone. You only determine whether you’re alone based on ‘your checklist of dislikes’.
So go ahead and be judgemental and critical while ‘on point’ successful attractive sistahs pass you by like Pookie and choose to be with a man who appreciates them, women who are beautiful, smart and successful. Sistahs don’t want males like you anyway, when there are plenty of men out there who would be happy to have them ‘weave and all.
But hey, I can do the same thing with a checklist:
Start listening guys or stay alone, y’all men pick.
Congratulations.
Hey, if 70% of black women are single it’s not just me. Having your preferences is cool. Some of them unrealistic but hey, they’re your preferences.
Cloudscape You need to stop believing the hype that the media spreads. Ms Cooper wrote an article exposing the 70% myth of black woman.
The 70% of Black Women Are Single Lie Exposed
http://survivingdating.com/?p=1115
As for my expectations, just because ‘you’ probably don’t meet them doesn’t mean they are ‘unrealistic’. It just means that a man like you doesn’t have what it takes to get a woman who has her shyt together. Women who are successful in their careers and finances don’t ask from men what they aren’t bringing to the table themselves.
Men like you who probably don’t cut the mustard, like to make it seem as though women have ‘unrealistic expectations, in order to make yourself feel better for not meeting them. In fact expectations like these are just a walk in the park for most nonblack men who has their shyt together. Sistahs should be willing to open their eyes and date these men since most brothas are in jail and can’t keep up with the success and achievement level of the sistahs in 2010. And many nonblack men are plenty interested in a smart sexy, attractive, successful confident sistah who wants someone on her level and is unwilling to settle for mediocrity which is what most brothas have to offer.
The irony is nonblack women aim high all of the time. Nobody calls white women’s expectations ‘unrealistic’ and many of them wouldn’t look twice at a man who wasn’t pulling 6 figures or any of the other things on my list. Black men don’t criticize them. But the minute a sistah lists her requirements, brothas want to whine that she’s being ‘unrealistic’. Who says she has to ‘limit’ herself to brothas?
Just as you said, your list is your list… well my list is my list. Don’t worry about my expectations, worry about getting your own needs met and stop concerning yourself about the marital state of black women. Since you’ve lumped all black women into this one negative pile anyway why are you even here on this site bothering to comment?
Also you’re the one who said this:
“I don’t have to pick you. Regardless off all of the other different types of women out there you are competing against other women, including black.”
So why would you turn around and take a hypocritical stance towards a black woman for wearing her hair ‘in a nonblack way’ when guys like you love to throw up in a black woman’s face how you supposedly have all these non-black women waiting in line at a chance to ‘date and marry you?
Is it any wonder that ‘some black women who have low self esteem and play right into your trifling desperate card, ‘feel they have to wear their hair a certain way since you readily throw up that you don’t have to pick them, you can go to nonblack women? So if a black woman wears weave, it’s because guys like you’ LIKE non-black hair and yet you berate a black woman for trying to look like what you yourself claim is nonblack and just waiting for you to pick from.
At any rate all of this is in your mind. Most likely nonblack women aren’t lining up in droves to marry or date you up so forget it. Black men like you love to play themselves up in their mind like they’re this ‘hot stud and women of every race is falling over themselves to get with them. Most times when men make these comments, they are sitting at home alone most weekends with their hand wrapped around their johnsons keeping themselves company and dreaming of the arm candy they wished that they had. So since you supposedly have this pick of women, what are you doing here?
Men like you need to get real. Unless they exceed simply being on ‘point’ just one step above mediocrity, they are not going to be getting a nonblack woman like the sport celebs and other black men have in the media that they admire. What they may get is something that no white man would probably want.
I sure wish sistas would get off of TV, out of the magazines, off the internet and everywhere else with these pleads for black men to ‘come back home’. That shit has got yall brothas thinkin yall are sooo special, and that even the most average cat, with high school diploma, a job, and basic benefits, is the ultimate catch.
News to black men:
COMPARING YOURSELF TO THE BOTTOM OF THE BARREL AND THINKING YOUR SOMETHING SPECIAL BECAUSE OF IT IS NOOOOOOOOT A SIGN OF BEING ON POINT!
Its actually a sign that your fellow brethren are so jacked up as a whole, that your medicore achievements actually SEEM important. It means that you belong to a groups of underachievers, and since you manage to eek out a bit of stability, you think your Donald Trump. It means that in actuality, the learning curve is so low, that anyone who writes their name at the top of the page, gets an “A”.
Black men do not get the ‘pick of the litter’, simply because the numbers are against us. They THINK they have the right to make all kinds of demands, but that shit is changing PRESENTLY. As more and more sistas start to realize the deal, and start opening themselves up to other types of men, we are gonna see a major shift in our group. This perceived “advantage’ that the average brotha thinks he has, is gonna fall by the waste side. Him being able to demand certain physical attributes, certain personality attributes, certain life attributes, while offering little in return will be DEAD.
So yall can act cute now and sit on your high horses thinking you doing us a favor by interacting with us. But when the shit hits the fan, AND IT WILL, lets see who will be there to back your asses up.
It sure wont be Elin, Becky or Rosita. No, them heffas are takin your asses to court for MORE THEN HALF, and taking your half negro babies with them, to mix back with white folks so your blood lines will forever be diluted. LOL. Yall so busy tryna protect them ‘family jewels’ from sistas, and you are gonna lose them to Becky when you don’t see it coming.
HILARIOUS.
I love you. I am a woman but I’m not gay and I absolutely without a doubt love you off the strength of that beyond profound response. I Respectfully say THANK YOU SIS.
oh..and that “honored’ tradition of letting a man think he came up with an idea is STUPID, IDOTIC and HUMILIATING.
and it proves just how unmanly most males are. The fact that a woman would need for her man to THINK he did something, just to get things done, is sad and retarded. Kinda like how most men THINK they know how to screw, when in actuality, the woman is going over her grocery list for tomorrows shopping trip.
LOL.
I cant stand that weak ass shit. If a man is not MAN enuf to chose a woman who is smart, intelligent and wise, then he is a loser and sucka. If he would bed and marry a woman who has to ‘pretend’ to be needy and defenseless, just so he can feel important, then he’s a simp and no woman should want him anyway.
True leadership is not about being a figurehead. Its about making decisions, executing plans and devising strategies. I am NOT going to dumb myself down, to placate the ego of some simpleton who cant get his thoughts together enuff to come up with the idea first.
So cats like you can ‘threaten” singledom to sistas all you want. There are worse fates then being single. Like being legally tied to an idiot who needs me to prop him up as “leader” so he can feel like something.
The man Im involved with needs no assistance from me in that regard. And he laughs @ all you cats who claim rights, but show no natural leadership abilities. He scoffs at males who want so badly be to alphas, but can barely make it to beta. LOL
He thinks that shit is hilarious. I totally agree!
Brooklyn Blu^^^5^^^ to your post. That Cloudscape would be doing black women a favor if he stays out of the dating field with them, let some nonblack woman have him and his backward ideas, his insecurity and his need to feel like a man by belittling his woman.
The fact that in order for him to be a leader, to feel like a man, the woman has to be ‘less than’. Who’d want that?
That guy think he’s smart because he knows a latin word for fallacy and arguments used to discredit and belittle. The irony is his entire post is ‘Ad hominem’ abusive towards black women by attributing negative stereotypes to black women in order for him to feel as though he is the ‘big ‘on point’man he’d like to think he is, and it’s aimed at attempting to make black sistahs clamor to curry favor with a guy so he won’t think badly of him.
Lot’s of dumb dudes use this tired old tactic of belittling black women and attempting to make them feel unattractive and desperate and not good enough for their trifling azzes, (when many of them don’t even cut the mustard), and low self-esteem black women fall for it every time.
I simply shrug and say, ‘Nobody wants you anyway with your funky attitude against women.’ By all means Date out, you’re doing sistahs a favor.
Interesting post, you need to go back and check your spelling of idiotic in the first sentence because you spelled it wrong, that’s kind of idiotic.
This is what you say simply to ‘hit back ‘ at Brooklyn Blu for delivering a few home truths. You have nothing of value to add, so you try to talk about spelling. This is a blog, this ain’t college or a spelling bee. Nobody has to spell check every word. But you got what she was saying though. And typical tyrannical guy such as what the article talks about, can’t stand to concede that perhaps, you’ve taken the incorrect stance here. Did you even bother to read the article? Because you exemplify the very man that this article discusses.
I did read the article and there were some good points in it.
Some of you have said brothers want a smart, sexy, intelligent woman. Spelling idiotic incorrectly doesn’t make a woman look like any of the three things listed above. And yes, some men do pay attention to stuff like that, you know, like spelling.
I look at spelling because I’m looking for a smart, sexy, intelligent woman. Spelling idiotic incorrectly makes me think: “She’s not smart or intelligent so she’s probably not sexy.” If anything be glad that I didn’t point out the five other grammatical errors in her post. I’ve ignored the other spelling mistakes, good luck finding them.
I didn’t really respond more than that because I remembered that some people can’t be argued with.
There are a lot of assumptions that have been made about me here when really, you don’t know me. You don’t know my income, marital status, career background, education or family history. Because you don’t know these things I can ignore any insults that get thrown my way, you’re simply guessing.
So call me a tyrant for not liking weaves – I don’t want them on any woman.
I don’t want to raise another man’s kids – no kids out of wedlock.
Nasty attitude, won’t listen – I’m not picking you.
Overweight – Not interested. I’m not overweight, I don’t want my woman to be.
The important thing is to remember is that the above preferences apply to woman of any race so no, I’m not picking on black women.
Cloudscape wrote: “I’m looking for a smart, sexy, intelligent woman…There are a lot of assumptions that have been made about me here when really, you don’t know me. You don’t know my, marital status,you’re simply guessing.’
I know you aren’t married because if you were, you wouldn’t be looking now would you. hahaha. That list of yours would already be fulfilled. And if you were ‘alladat’ with the looks, the body, income,educational level and career success that you claim and being that ‘men like you are supposedly in demand, then you would have been snapped up a long time ago by all these women who are supposedly clamoring for men who are ‘exceedingly’ on point’.
So if you are ‘alladat’, then why are you still looking? I’m sure there are plenty of good looking 10’s who would be more than happy to have you if you are all that you claim. You’d be far too busy to be on a blog site, you’d be too busy picking from the ‘droves’ of women.
Cloudscape nobody called you a tyrant for not liking weaves, however realize that your dislikes are just yours. If you know you don’t like them, simply don’t date women who wear them. What is the point in keep harping on and on about your dislikes and repeating yourself? Women who don’t fit your criteria will simply pass you by and you wouldn’t be interested in them anyway so end of story. Who are you trying to convince?
Why not just shut up about it and focus on your ‘likes’ rather than your dislikes and let that be the guide that you look for. (This to me tells me more about your personality type than anything else). You accentuate ‘dislikes‘ rather than likes. You come from a negative stance rather than a positive one. Men like this tend to be a real drag because they are predisposed to look for the ‘bad’ in people first, rather than the positive.
Cloudscape wrote: ” If anything be glad that I didn’t point out the five other grammatical errors in her post. I’ve ignored the other spelling mistakes, good luck finding them.”
As for the spelling you’re trying to focus on in order to ‘detract’ from the ‘home truths Brooklyn delivered to you in her post, You’re attempting to do to Brooklyn blu is the very same ad hominem abusive tactic that you first mentioned in your own post. All because she delivered a few home truths to you and hit a nerve and now you’re trying to ‘hit back’ on some weak azz spelling trip.
She apparently is with a man who epitomizes everything that you’re not. And not only that, he thinks males like you are silly and foolish. You can’t take it that another man would think that about you because in your mind, you’re supposed to be at this level of greatness.
And regardless of what you claim, Brooklyn isn’t trying to impress you, she already has ‘her man’ who is quite impressed with her, but since she blasted you with ‘Truth’, you resort to ‘nitpicking and attempting to discredit by focusing on her spelling. classic ad hominem abusive tactic.
No wonder you mentioned that Latin word, because that’s what you’ve done throughout your posts. You’re not even good at it because you only use ‘one tactic’ when there are so many that requires higher level intelligence to use rather than the most commonly used abusive type tactic.
You’re just mad because as Brooklyn said, you sound like a weak-minded man who feels ‘entitled’ to lead not by what you’ve done to earn that role, but because you are a ‘male’. And in order for you to feel like a ‘man’ the woman who is with you, has to dumb herself down and ‘let’ you feel as though a decision originates from you to shore up your perceived leadership abilities. How lame is that?
Cloudscape wrote: “I look at spelling because I’m looking for a smart, sexy, intelligent woman..Spelling idiotic incorrectly makes me think: “She’s not smart or intelligent so she’s probably not sexy”.
Your comments about spelling = smart/intelligence/sexy just shows you how silly and ‘unintelligent’ you are and that you have no clue about what intelligence or sexiness. Some of your smartest people in the world can’t spell worth a darn. Some of your dumbest people in the world can spell like a dictionary.
Because spelling involves rote memory, not higher level analytical mental functions. And unless you’re getting into spelling bee championship level and have to understand the etymology of words, which most folks aren’t, you don’t need more than rote memory skill to spell words. Some of your smartest people have zero sex appeal. (men and women).
The fact that you use spelling ability as your criteria to determine someone’s intelligence and sex appeal shows that you are neither sexy nor smart. This ain’t no job site, it’s a blog and it aint’ that serious where folks are going to spell check when they are writing conversationally. Spelling a word correctly has nothing to do with someone’s sex appeal or the level of their intelligence. CEO’s of billion dollar companies can barely write a cohesive sentence. That’s what they have other people in place for.
I went to grad school with a guy who is an Applied Econometrics PhD student. The guy was brilliant in the higher level quantitative maths, but I had to help him with his papers because writing wasn’t his strong suit. He always struggled with English classes, yet the guy was quite intelligent.
While you may have ‘read’ the article, you seemed to not have grasped that based on how you’ve presented yourself in your posts, you are the very type of male this article is written about. You should take it to heart because this article is all about YOU.
BTW..Don’t bother writing a response, this is the final comment dealing with you. You’ve been given enough food for thought, now go away and take it in. No more attention will be given to your nonsensical comments. None of your future comments will be posted because all you’re doing at this point is just ‘commenting to ‘hit back’ and have the last word’ A typical behavior of an insecure man who can’t accept that a woman may be right, and he may be wrong in how he interacts with her.
Cloudscape,
There is something called a TYPO which is when a person makes a grammatical mistake (punctuation, spelling, etc) and doesnt realize it. Its not always a sign of lack of education or intelligence, especially if the rest of the writing doesnt demonstrate those inadequacies. They are quite common when texting, IM’ing or posting online, as folks tend to not be sticklers for grammar, and communicate in an informal and relaxed fashion. Your trying to discredit my entire post by focusing on one misspelled word shows me a few things, which are rather self explanatory, and need no explanation.
I may be many things, have many faults and lack many skills, but my intelligence, ability to reason and communication skillsets are in tact, sweety. It is very typical of you to try to trump my ‘femaleness’ with accusations of intellectual or educational inferiority. How cliche.
I. AM. NOT. THE. ONE.
Lets keep this thing sophisticated. Must we try to discredit each other based on diversionary tactics which are pedestrian, at best? Can we keep the topic relevant by discussing the TRUE issues, or must we spend time addressing silly commentary.
Sheesh. when will you guys grow up?
Cloud,
I’m a man and I gotta disagree, brother. I want a woman to keep it real, not placate me. That’s sad if that’s really what some brothers want.
To all,
I keep seeing the words “educated”, “education” floating around. What constitutes being educated? Surely not just going to college?! You could go to college and not learn to apply any of it to the real world. You’ll come out and lack any consciousness. You’ll be well trained like a circus animal.
If two people are joining together, they are TOGETHER, side by side. They counter balance each other. One has a strong suit here, one there. If being with a black man now a days means you have to continuously stroke his ego and not get reciprocity, then consider me gone to the next OTHER man. I ain’t the one.
New commenter here and I have to co-sign most of the ladies’ comments. I believe it was Raz who said, women take care of the relationship, they take care of the family, they manage the health and well being of the family and lets be real, make most of the financial decisions. So what is this mess about leadership and men being so called “on point.” WAY TOO MANY women, black women have to lower their standards, because numerically speaking there simply aren’t enough “on point” or as the first commenter stated, RESPONSIBLE men around. People have different personalities, both men and women may be insecure enough to think they need to dominate someone else. Hell my last relationship suffered majorly from one of these fool men who could not get it together. He was an attorney yet he had bad credit. Yet he couldn’t manage his household and bills, yet he didn’t take care of his car, constantly racked up tickets because he was an irresponsible driver, and STILL wanted me to follow whatever his advice was because he had that archaic patriarchal notion that this article fully reminds me of—that men are supposed to lead and women are supposed to submit and follow. Even though I was the responsible one, he would be considered “weak” to follow me. Your boy Don has it WRONG. It is high time the black community get their collective heads out of the sand, out of religious notions and away from sexism PERIOD. Why does anyone have to LEAD anyone anywhere?
Great post ElLe85
What these males need to realize is that ‘You don’t ‘tell’ someone to follow what you do if you want to be a leader’. You ‘SHOW’ by your actions, that you are worthy of being a leader and folks will automatically follow you as Brooklyn Blu pointed out in her post. Sensible people follow ‘responsible actions not ‘mere words’ Males need to stop this ‘Do what I say’ mentality’. Heck would any of them follow a man around who displayed irresponsible behavior? I don’t think so.
And another thing, I have many professional successful female friends. I don’t know any who ‘brag and boast and engage in a ‘pissing’ contest with men to show they are ‘better’ than a man. I think this is an over exaggeration that men have blown up in their minds, because ‘they are the ones intimidated by the woman’s achievement so her accomplishments become the focal point for them not her. They look at what she’s achieved and it makes them feel that they are ‘lacking ‘in someway.
Of course women want men who are ‘on point’ because women want someone who shows just like she does, that he is responsible and can and is handling his business. Aside from that, most women want a man who is supportive/loving/respectful/loyality/passionate… all the things that men are capable of doing, if they get their head out of their azzes and stop projecting their angst onto a woman. I don’t know what type of women that ‘Don’ has been meeting but I have to wonder if his perspective realistic or an exaggeration, a caricature if you will.. that he has blown up in his own mind and painted all women with this broad stroke. Sure there are ‘some women like that, but most women in my experience are not like how he described. Men tend to react to women, not based on the actual reality, but based on ‘their projected reality’.
Co sign again Raz 100%
I always find men who want women to submit to them have not yet rid themselves of their mommy-energy.It is as if these men have a desire to make their ‘moms’ conform to their whims because she was the leader in their household. Therefore, he finds a woman like his mom and then expect that surrogate to submit.It is a bit creepy to me.It seems as if men who have lost their mothers at an early age understand partnership and have no desire to rule the roost. At least not ‘Demand’ to rule the roost anyway.These men have natural leadership tendencies because they never had a woman to wipe their behind, nose and then turnaround tell them they are the man of the house but beat that azz when they got out of line.It seems once a man (the one who didn’t have a ‘mommy-wife-enforcer’) has a woman in his life, he appreciates her natural abilities to lead yet follow when necessary.Now I’m not going to say this is true of all men. It is just something I’ve observed of men from single mother homes vs men from single father homes/or homes where there was a balance of power between mom and dad.
Is ‘On Point’ a glorified way of saying a responsible man? What’s so special about that? Why do brothas want extra credit for doing what they are supposed to be doing in the first place. Any one who handles their business qualifies to be ‘on point’.
Guys use the wrong standards to compare their progress to. They use the RayJays 8 babies by 7 baby mamas high school drop off on the street corner hanging out, no job having guy to compare themselves too. As long as they aren’t doing RayJ, they think they are ‘on point’. Why not compare themselves ‘UP’ instead of down/substandard. Compare themselves to Obama, Bill Gates, instead of someone who is below standard. Then guys wouldn’t be so quick to get the big head if they were always reaching to improve themselves.
But in general black men have such low standards as a collective in their achievements that anyone who
finishes high school and has a job will think they’ve done something worthy of the Nobel prize. They think they are ‘on point’ by ‘not going to jail, not having baby mamas, not selling drugs,. Why not be on point by comparing yourself to high achievers.
Shoot if that’s the case for every one guy who claims to be on point there are about 5 women who are on point. Guys think just because they are being ‘responsible’ a responsible woman ought to be ‘glad to get him because he’s accomplished something’. Black men have it backwards. I don’t think nonblack men think like this. They have higher standards they look to when making comparisons.
First of all, the losers in the black community are rewarded. Look at who are the fathers of these children born out of wedlock. Almost every brother in jail has children. Black women reward these losers by having their children. Brothers like myself get ignored. Ignored until they have multiple kids. I do not want them. The other problem is the educated women insist upon controlling the relationship and no true man will accept them as wives. Being alone is better than having to live in fear of divorce.
Pookie,
You sound like those guys that Ms. Heartbeat talks about in her article Bitch Made “Good Men” In the Dating Pool http://survivingdating.com/?p=408 I’ve provided the link read that article. Men like you tend to lump women together in this category that they all go for ‘losers’ and that men like you, ‘playing the world’s tiniest ‘good man violin’ are entitled to a woman you think is worthy of you just because you proclaim yourself to be a ‘good man’, and therefore women should automatically go for you. (Pluuueeze).
Meanwhile what are you doing, besides’ touting yourself as not being a ‘loser’ to attract a woman to you? How is a woman supposed to know you are who you claim to be? Most men like you stand on the sideline criticizing women and don’t step up and engage and put yourself out there to meet women. This is where the ‘so called loser’ guys win. And if these guys are getting the women, while you’re whining on the sidelines alone and dateless, well that makes you the loser jealous of the guys who are getting what you can’t get for yourself. So rather than looking at what you can do to improve, you start blaming everyone else.
And this mess about educated women controlling the relationship is just crap. How would you know? You can’t get a date by your own admission so how do you know what ‘educated women are doing since you aren’t dating any? According to you, they are choosing the ‘losers over you’. So what are you basing this on? Perhaps you’re the one who is feeling intimidated by an educated successful woman who has her shyt together. You know that you don’t have the ‘upper hand’ as you would a woman who is uneducated therefore she would ‘defer’ and submit to you.
That’s the crux of the matter. Guys know they better have their shyt together before they step up to one of these educated successful women because she is not going to take his mess if he is sloppy. Sloppy guys have no business trying to tell anyone what to do, especially when that woman is already responsible and ‘on point’, while he is half-azzing around trying to dominate. He needs to go sit down somewhere and get his shyt together first, before trying to be a leader.
Pookie that statement about being alone is better than living in fear of divorce just shows your lack of maturity.
As if divorce is caused solely by the woman. I You sound just like the very man this article is discussing. A guy who wants to boss someone around and demand dominance when he doesn’t know the first thing about leadership, nor does he know the first thing about what makes a relationship works.
Men think as long as they are providing, that’s all they have to do. It takes more than providing to make a successful relationship. Read this article again. This one and the other one I recommended and grow the hell up.
I think alot of times guys like this Pookie character are mad because he wants a “Beyonce” but doesnt have the “goods’ that type of woman is looking for. So he whines about black women only wanting ‘thugs” and uses that as an excuse to date Becky.
I have found, that brothas are soooo hypnotized by the idea of having a ‘certain’ type of woman, that they overlook the women who may not “look” the part, but actually have their shit together. The ‘dime’ pieces they are looking at, are checking for Edris, not Urkle, and so they feel rejected.
Perhaps if these guys stop thinking they are something special cause they got a job, a half decent education and live on their own, get their heads out the clouds and come back down to earth, they will find that many black women would make great mates. But as long as they are waiting for Rihanna who cooks like Martha Stewart, fucks like Supahead and caters to their ego like June Cleaver, they will always be outside the loop.
The woman that has the qualities they are looking for May not necessarily have long hair, a big ass and a supermodel face. She may be an “average” sista, with a great heart, a good head on her shoulders and a lot to offer.
As much as brothas claim all we want is Denzel, I think many of them are stuck on video hoochies and dont realize that shit is NOT REAL LIFE. They so busy tryna bag the “dime’ (which is usually synomamous with mixed heritage, a softer hair texture, a strippers physique and ‘certain’ facial features), they end up with nothing. If they were smart, they’d realize that the 6.5 with her shit together is often a better choice then the 10 who’s neurotic and unstable.
The “average” guy who is complaining about how women overlook him are the same cats who only want a woman who will make their friends jealous. They do not want an “average’ sista. So they sit, and complain, pout and whine.
I see it all over the internet and the shit is funny as hell.
Girrlll, PREACH, Tell it like it TIS!
Or as I used to say to little dumb niccas like the ones you describe, that’s like a Pinto trying to get with a Mercedes, you need to stay in your lane pahtna.
I agree with you there Mace! Black men are the only ones who think they are exceptional when they become successful contributors to society. That should be the aim of every responsible adult.
This article is VERY timely for me because I am seeing a man who exemplifies what Deb is saying. This man is the most COMMANDING (not demanding), CONFIDENT, BRILLIANT, CONSISTANT, COMPELLING man I have ever known. He is book smart, be even more street smart. He is the antithesis of everything I thought i wanted in a man, (looks wise, personality wise, etc) yet I find myself drawn to him like a moth to a flame. I keep trying to figure out what about him is so appealing, that despite us being opposite in almost every way…(hes a republican, a follower of Islam (which I CANNOT believe i would go for, but he aint tryna convert me and respects my spiritual position, so its cool), he’s analytical and not overtly emotional…but there is something about this guy that has me enthralled.
HE IS ON POINT.
Plain and simple. And he lives his life in such a way, that i have come to trust his character, his advice and his widsom. I find myself ‘yeilding’ to him in some ways…NATURALLY. We dont have to discuss it and he doesnt demand it. And although we dont always agree, and sometimes see life from very different points of view, i RESPECT him so much, that its easy for me to listen, and if appropriate, follow his lead. Not in every area and not for everything. But he has earned a position of a leader in many regards, and I am finding it less and less of an issue for me to accept that. And like Deb said, he is “so on point” that MEN follow his lead, too.
THAT’S A TRUE LEADER.
ALL these cats out here who keep screaming about ‘submission’ are the ones who DO NOT NATURALLY garner the respect of women, and so have to DEMAND it based on some religious notions of “Divine Leadership”.
NOT.
Every man isn’t suited to lead. Every woman isn’t suited to follow. What the man I am seeing has is VERY RARE and I would not follow the lead of any other unless he also exhibited these traits. The average man is not an Alpha, a leader or a King. The average man is …well, average. A sista like me would NEVER follow a man like that.
That Don sounds a bit tyrannical. What’s with this statement that “Women are not qualified to lead a relationship’? 98% of the relationship is carried by the woman, and the man ‘helps out’. Other than bringing home the bacon (and these days the woman is doing that too), how much does the ‘Man’ actually contribute to the day to day running of the household and the childcare?
So what is this dismissive attitude he has about women aren’t being qualified to ‘lead when actually it’s the woman running and managing things? What exactly is he ‘leading’ when the woman is doing the work and the upkeep of the relationship? Most times men don’t know what the heck is going on in their own homes or in their relationships.
Most women manage the household expenditures/budget, most women/wives, manage/organize the childcare. Most women plan and cook the meals, organize vacations, organize relationships with families, Most women, take the kids to and from after school activities, most women are the ones who meet the teachers.
In fact it is the women who ‘head ups’ everything in the running of the home, while the men ‘play a very small role. It is the woman who organizes, manages, coordinates, budgets distributes, schedules, implements, inventories etc… In a relationship, it’s usually the woman who takes the lead in maintaining the ’emotional health of the relationship.
So what exactly is the man supposed to be doing when he is so called ‘leading the relationship?” I’d like to know exactly in details what a man’s leadership role is and what that entails.
What a great article! I loved this quote and will live by this: “Leadership is not about rulership but rather about being an example.” So many women blindly follow and listen to men just because ‘he says so’ and they don’t question anything. They acquiescence to men for the sake of the ‘male’s ego rather than for common sense. Men need to realize that ‘leadership is earned. Even in business, they don’t just put someone in a position of leadership unless that person has a proven track record of having ‘shown successful leadership skills and outcomes based on his abilities.
Too many women place men on a pedestal and in charge of their lives, by giving their time, energy/devotion/wifey benefits because the man demands it from them. Meanwhile it is not reciprocal. Women need to stop ‘giving’ men so much unearned authority and power.
I also have to disagree with “Don’ on one of his comments. He claims that successful women date men who are less accomplished/educated than they are so that they can dominate and control the relationship. I disagree with that assessment. And being that I’m a woman, I can see it from the perspective of how women view potential mates.
Most women that I know are encouraged to ‘date up’ not down. Successful women DO want to go for men who are ‘on point’ because they prove at least from a practical standpoint that they can be a successful provider at least on her level or above. However there are too few of those men to go around so often women ‘settle’. And a lot of ‘on point’ brothas date other than the sistahs.
I loved the comment about men who demand to be leaders are akin to tyrannical dictators who grab power by coup. Sooner or later their reign will be overthrown. People should follow you out of ‘respect, confidence and trust, not out of ‘fear of the repercussions if they didn’t. Fear doesn’t promote loyality and that’s what guys don’t realize when they ‘demand’ this leadership role and they haven’t demonstrated any leadership abilities.
I’m reminded of the movie Gladiator, a great movie directed by Ridley Scott with Russell Crowe as the hero. In one scene Joaquin Phoenix’s character rides triumphantly into the city amid rose petals on a chariot. The Roman senators look at him in disdain and one says, “He rides as though he’s a war hero, but who has he conquered, who has he fought?
Phoenix’s character ‘wrested’ power for himself through nefarious means but deep down he was an insecure sniveling baby with no leadership cababilities. Crowes’ character was the true hero whose actions showed who he really was and his character stayed true to form, even when his life turned topsy turvey and he went from being head of the powerful Roman army to becoming a slave made to fight.
This is what leadership is about. A person’s character should withstand what life throws at them, and they ‘consistenly’ prove through their steadfast work and character that they are someone to be respected, admired, trustworthy and they encourage confidence and loyalty.
That movie is a prime example of what a ineffective tyrannical dictator and a loyal strong admirable leader.
Deborrah, this is excellent. I can especially identify with the man you describe that DEMANDS leadership, instead of earning the privilege to have it. I dated, and eventually dumped one of those. Fool had the nerve to bring out the Bible, citing scripture about submission. But guess what? That verse was meant for husbands and wives–we were neither! Ugh.
For my marriage and the family class (college first degree a long time ago), counseling troubled couples included getting them to think of their marriage like a business. You developed a business plan, some standard operating procedures, adopted roles, made a contingency plan…just like a real life business. I think people need this kind of counseling before saying I do. This modern era has changed gender roles from the times of our mothers and grandmothers. I don’t want (or be expected) to work FT plus OT, take care of the kids, take care of the house, do the cooking/cleaning and have little to no say in what’s going on? Yeah, not signing up for that. If a man needs to be that Alpha, get the Stay-at-home Barbie for $9.97 at Wal-mart.