Should Women Ask Men Out on Dates?
Issue: So-called “good men” frequently complain that women choose style over substance and prefer players. Women counter with “Well at least the playa steps up, which is more than the scary ‘good guys’ afraid of rejection will do!” I am wondering how many of these ‘good guys’ would have been chosen if they had the courage to approach instead of hanging back in fear waiting for a woman to approach them. Do you think a woman should do what they want and approach a man that she thinks is interesting and ask him out?
This HE SAID/SHE SAID column features guest columnist Robert Monroe, dialoguing with dating expert Deborrah Cooper about nice guys and players in the dating pool.
HE SAYS:
So are you saying that women would rather sit back and wait to be approached by players rather than get off of their butts and find a good man who doesn’t have “game” but has everything else they’re looking for in a man?
Maybe if they’d stop going for the players with “game” they wouldn’t be cheated on so much. It’s the 21st century women…take some personal responsibility. And if women are hearing statements like I wrote from men over and over again, and you aren’t listening there is a problem. Sometimes the men in your lives care about you and are trying to help you avoid being hurt by the ignoramuses out there…if you’d only listen.
But, that’s expecting too much sometimes. That’s why many men don’t bother even when the women in our lives have relationship problems.
As a father to a 7 year old daughter I plan to educate her about players and nice guys, and how to tell the difference. I guess I’ll have to start with teaching her that “assertiveness” and the ability to “man up” shouldn’t translate into dating/marriage/father material.
Then I’ll follow that up with telling her to look for the characteristics that will help her to ascertain whether or not a man is a good guy and approach him if she’s interested. After all, it’s the 21st century and she can be intelligent, strong and ask men out, too.
Women in general fail to listen to the men in their lives giving them advice about other men. I learned a long time ago to listen to the women in my life who gave me advice because they understood women better than I did. The few times I didn’t listen they were quick with the “I told you so!”
Ladies, remember that not all men who are hanging back lack those qualities that a woman is looking for…he may be otherwise occupied and not seeing the woman who is interested in him. At that point it may be up to the woman to make a move.
Personally, there have been times when I was so focused on what I needed to get done in my life that I failed to see a woman who was interested until either she made a move or someone pulled my coat about it.
SHE SAYS:
A woman won’t know a guy is a ‘good guy’ if he doesn’t approach her and let her know. It’s the man’s job in this society to approach the female! That’s women’s perception of manhood – a man going after what he wants with determination and focus. Such behavior shows assertiveness, confidence, charisma and all those things women find masculine and attractive about guys. Those fellas who sit back and act as though their ‘goodness’ is written like a placard across their forehead aren’t doing themselves any justice when it comes to their failure to go after women they want.
Good guys often assume that every man who steps up to a woman is a player! In reality, not every man who approaches a woman is a playa type – it’s just that players display the assertive charismatic traits that many so called ‘good guys’ fail to demonstrate.
The ‘good guys’ sit on the sidelines over-analyzing everything the woman does, says, her hair, clothing, what she might say or do, etc. while the playas have already stepped up and approached with a smile! That could be why playas have more success at women simply because they have the balls to approach.
I’m thinking good guys could take a lesson on how to approach from playas. Not that you have to turn into a playa, but sitting on the side line waiting for some woman to notice you’re a ‘good guy’ isn’t going to cut it at all. A man that sits back and embraces his resentment instead of manning up and stepping up to the woman that HE WANTS is the man that will lose out.
The “good” guys seem to resent that they need to do the work to get a woman and expect their “goodness” to draw a woman in, as if they are entitled to her. Any woman worth having with self-esteem and confidence herself demands to have a man that presents himself as having those qualities as well.
Personally, I want a man that is courageous, strong, determined and confident. He has to at least match my levels of all the above! And a man that hangs back in fear and demands that I step to HIM to ask him out so he won’t be afraid or fear rejection will die waiting.
Women are not here to make men feel unafraid; that is their job to do for themselves. A woman’s job in the dating process is to be her fabulous, sexy self. And if a guy feels he doesn’t measure up, that he will get shot down if he tries to talk to her, that he is not worthy of that type of woman – well that’s his problem. Not mine, nor any other woman’s problem.
Finally, let me address that “too busy to notice a woman interested in me” thing you mentioned. If you are truly focused with other things and not noticing her AT ALL, then even when she DOES approach, your mind and attention will still not be on her. It will remain on whatever it was you were focused on. Men tend to be singularly minded like that and only able to focus on one thing at a time. Scientific studies have proven over and over again that this is how the male brain works.
So when a man is focused on career success, education, whatever, he does not really have time for a woman and the devoted attention she needs to feel loved in a relationship with him. He won’t call her that much, he will be distracted, he will be irritated when she complains about how he doesn’t pay attention to her, etc. He will get angry that she is “bugging” him and ask “can’t she see he is trying to do XYZ” so the relationship goes down in flames.
In closing, I fail to see where it is to a female’s advantage to even attempt to become involved with a man that is not demonstrating interest in her. Men may be flattered by a woman’s approach and feel such behavior is logical and makes sense for her to do, but in the romantic relationship world logic is not the motivator.
A woman chasing after a man that doesn’t notice that she is alive or asking a man out on a date that is not focusing on his feelings for her never works.
Deborrah
Veteran social researcher, relationship advice columnist, author and radio host. Author of hundreds of articles on American and black culture, gender issues, singles, dating and relationships. Author of "Sucka Free Love!" , "The 24 Types of Suckas to Avoid," "The Black Church - Where Women Pray and Men Pray," and "Why Vegan is the New Black" all available on Amazon.Com. Her unique voice and insightful commentary have delighted fans and riled haters for 20 years. Read her stuff on SurvivingDating.Com and AskHeartBeat.Com.
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Category: Date Smarter, Not Harder
Well, listen to these women! It is the man’s job to pursue, according to them, and if we do not pursue, then we are lazy? How do you live with such a double standard?
Every single friend of mine that is married is because SHE asked the MAN out. Ladies, it’s common sense – either ask guys out, or live your entire life alone.
This depends on where you live, too. In big cities like Chicago or New York, there tends to be 1 man for every 4 women. Women HAVE to pursue or else they will get NO one. And pursue doesn’t mean breathe down his neck. Pursue means “hey, want to get coffee sometime?” THAT’S IT. That’s ALL a woman has to do! Let him take it from there.
Stephanie asking a man out for coffee is considered showing’ your interest. That’s not the same as asking him, ‘Hey do you want to date me?’
Do what you feel. But I still think if a man isn’t interested or too scary to say that same sentence to a woman, he is a punk and I wouldn’t want him.
I think this issue goes a lot deeper. If a woman isn’t being asked out on dates, and if the man is saying no when she does ask them out: consider the possibility that maybe you’re not meant to be dating period. If the woman does the pursuing, she’s already put herself in a position of looking desperate. The man knows this and the worst of the lot take advantage. Even if the woman manages to get the man to marry her, it’s a ‘hollow victory’ at best. She will always have to be the one to make the first move in everything. The man will just sit back and take, take, take. Even if they break up, chances are the woman is going to have to do the breaking up because what happens when a woman pursues the guy, they usually wind up with the passive-agressive narcissistic types who don’t really care about her at all, but they’re perfectly willing to eat from whatever plate she sets in front of them. Better to be alone than to put up with a man like that. If it is God’s will you have a boyfriend/husband, it will happen. If it doesn’t then women need to accept this and stop complaining and acting desperate and making things worse. There are worse things in life than being alone and dateless. Being in a loveless pseudo-relationship that destoys one’s body, soul and spirit is one of them. If the man really and truly wants you, they’ll come to you no matter what. If he doesn’t then nothing you do will make them change their minds. That’s the truth. Deal with it.
What do you call a woman who approaches a man? A hooker. That’s right. I said it. Never in my life have I pursued a man. Man is the hunter and pursuer; I did not make that isht up. That’s the way it is and has always been.
Like the lady said, a woman’s job is to be her sexy fabulous self. A man’s job is to demonstrate his interest by doing the work to pursue and please the woman. The only thing a woman will get from pursuing a man is a quick roll in the hay. When a man doesn’t have to work, when its too easy, he takes it for granted.
The truth is – and this is biological fact – men are not picky. Any female that is attractive, young, fertile and breathing he will never turn down. When you’re quick to get, you’re easy to leave. So women interested in relationship should NEVER PURSUE MEN.
I am married and I dated many before I chose my husband. He was the initiator and pursuer. I accepted his interest by being friendly and signaling my availability. That’s all women need do. Look fabulous, be friendly, be approachable. Pick from your suitors the men that are willing to work and demonstrate continued interest. The lazy ones are the ones you do not want.
The wman that wrote this article is obviously biased, being a wman for wmen and against men. Since wmen think they have come into their own, fighting for their liberation, fighting for equality with men (which should never have been an issue in the first place), then tell me why shouldn’t wmen be the ones to make first approach if they see a man that peaks their interest?? Truthfully, it makes me sick that men are expected to always be the pursuer, always take the risk in first approach by making themselves vunerable to rejection and being rediculed if they choose to sit back and wait for a female to come up to them (being called less than a man). Since wmen think they are so liberated and now have the power they have sought, let them start taking some of the risk in relationships!
Eric D. R. “Truthfully, it makes me sick that men are expected to always be the pursuer, always take the risk in first approach by making themselves vunerable to rejection and being rediculed if they choose to sit back and wait for a female to come up to them (being called less than a man).”
This is why males like you get passed over by desirable woman. You are not a man. You are a cowardly trifling nervous scurred fool. Nothing sexy or attractive about that. You want the woman to take on the man’s role and be a pursuer. What does that make you? A wussy beeyatch as man with a mangina complaining because you’re too scurred to step up and be the man and go for what you want. The thought of being rejected has you so afraid, that you would rather sit back and be alone rather than risk rejection as if you’re entitled to get a yes, just because you asked a woman out. You don’t deserve to date women. If you’re too scurred to step up to a woman and risk possible rejection, perhaps you should date men. You sound like someone who can’t handle rejection which means you’ll act a zip dayum fool if you get rejected and that’s something no woman should deal with. You’re probably a loser too because you can’t handle rejection which is all part of dating. Best thing for you to do is get lost like the wimp that you are.
Raz – Where do you get such a double standard?
Stop whining. You are being he-motional and acting like you have a mangina, and its not cute. You have few ways to prove yourself a man any more. Avail yourself of this opportunity and step the hell up and make it happen. Afraid of rejection are you? Get over it.
Lots of catty women here. Women want to be equal to men only when it comes to advantages like salary but when it comes to disadvantages, they come up with reasons why they should not be equal. The truth is women are instinctual and their instincts through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution before civilization make them attracted to the worst men. Then when they are dumped or cheated on or beat up, it is always “all men” that are bad, not that the woman has bad taste in men. But don’t fret, there are decent women out there that appreciate nice guys. They are the ones you want to marry.
Hal: “Women want to be equal to men only when it comes to advantages like salary but when it comes to disadvantages, they come up with reasons why they should not be equal. “
Hall you are full of shit! Men want to be traditional when it suits them but then want ‘untraditional‘ privileges when it suits them. Men want sex without marriage and want to date women without paying for dates, then call that ‘women being equal. No FOOL, that’s you not being a gentleman and a trifling asshole. Learn the difference! It’s men like you with your fonky attitude that women put on nignore. And this mess about women being instinctual, obviously you don’t know shit about women. It’s men who run around with their dicks leading the way. They could care less about what is going on with a woman, as long as she makes their dicks hard, they jump on board wanting to treat all women like jump offs.
So when you have women demanding that men stop acting like trifling horny dogs, a stupid ignorant fool like yourself comes along and tries to flip the script and whine and say women aren’t being ‘equal’. That’s just some dumb excuse you give yourself for being a cheap trifling fool. A decent woman would not want a cheap fool like you and the ones that end up with fools like you are those women with low self esteem willing to practically pay for a man to be with them. So you ain’t hardly getting no prize with a woman like that.
Great Post! I wrote a blog discussing how women and men think and communicate differently last week. (I also noticed we seem to blog about many of the same topics). This post caught my attention because I am a firmly believer in a man approaching a woman. I NEVER approach men because it’s not my intent to pursue a man. Women who approach men, create a role reversal and in the end they are the ones who end up doing the chasing and pursuing in a relationship. I was not raised that way nor have I ever been in a relationship where I did the chasing, I’m not going to start now. If a guy is not man enough the approach me, he’s not the kind of man I’m looking for.
Jes, you sound crazy. There is no study in the world that “proves” women can’t do math. Likewise there is no study that proves women are prone to hysteria either. However there are DOZENS of studies which prove that the male and female brains operate very differently.
Understand the differences in how men and women process information. The male brain is highly systemized, with a high ability to compartmentalize, a low ability to multitask, a high ability to control emotions, a low relational orientation, a high project orientation, a high ability to “zone out,” a tendency to act first and think later when faced with stress, an aggressive response to risk, and a tendency to compete with other males.
The female brain is highly empathetic, with a low ability to compartmentalize, a high ability to multi-task, a low ability to control emotions, a relational orientation, a low project orientation, a low ability to “zone out,” a tendency to think and feel before acting in response to stress, a cautious response to risk, and a tendency to cooperate with other females.
Get it? HIGH PROJECT ORIENTATION which translates in dating to “that’s what I want and I gotta do whatever I need to do to get her!” Couple that with the male need to compete with other males and you have the answer to why men choose a woman, chase a woman, and lock down the woman they want by asking for a date, then her hand in marriage. A man focused on his goal of having the woman he desires most in his bed and arms for him to love, and to have love them for a lifetime is something no modern anything can keep a man from doing.
If he is truly a MAN that is. Otherwise, he is a spineless punk, or he is just a pussy hound and sees a woman’s interest in him as just one more hurdle removed from access to the pussy by the most direct route.
I’ll be discussing the fine nuances of this whole issue on Saturday April 10th. Hope you can listen in.
Wow Mace you made some interesting points. My question to the guys is why are they so reluctant to approach a woman in the first place? What’s up with that? Guys don’t want to question their own behavior and the signals they send out when they don’t go after women who capture their interest initially, they’re too busy looking at the so called signals of a woman who they feel should come after them.
When a woman Does make the first move, often the guy isn’t really into her the way he would be if ‘HE’ made the first move with a woman he was brave enough and wanted badly enough to approach. I certainly wouldn’t want to waste my love, time, and energy on a guy who had a lackadaisal attitude towards me. I wouldn’t want to be his Ms. Right Now. Someone to spend time with for convenience until the woman he really wants comes along and inspires him to get off his butt and pursue her.
So I agree with Mace and ExBack, a man sitting on the sideline unwilling to ask me out has already lost points in my eyes. He’s already sent out the message that ‘he’s not interested enough in me to make the first move’ and I don’t have time for that. If he can’t take on that most basic manly role and come after me, then he’s not for me in the first place.
Jes in case you’ve forgotten you are an animal, a human animal. And you are arguing two entirely different points, we are not talking about offsprings, We’re talking about dating and mating so let’s keep the focus on the mating. And to say the ‘male’s role is to kill the offspring of their rivals as if that is ALL the males do is a gross understatement which doesn’t take into account other roles the male animals (not human) play.
By the way, according to crime stats, plenty of males in fact DO kill their offspring a sad truth but a truth nonetheless.
But keeping the focus strictly on ‘the call of mating. The natural order of things is that the male goes out and seeks his mate, regardless of if you are a human male, a lion male, a chimpanzee, bird, insect. It is the male that battles other males for the right to mate. That is the natural order of things.
Females including human females are highly attracted to males that display the traits that make them attractive as prospective mates. When human males sit on the sideline and fail to answer the mating call by actively pursuing their mate, they are not leaving that female with a good impression of their virility. Ultimately no matter how intelligent the human animal is, when it comes to ‘mating and relating’ we can’t get pass mother nature and the natural order of things. And that is primal.
Personally if I were a woman, a man who fails to step up to me and ask me out is not a man who I’d be interested in dating. His failure to show his virility, confidence, assertiveness rules him out as a potential mate. No matter how ‘smart, or good he is, if he strikes out in the ‘primal components’ which is what really counts, in the dating and mating arena he will fall by the way side and he should.
No woman is attracted to a wimp.
Now you aren’t speaking nothing but the truth and took it to the animal kingdom on their asses. Nothing sexier than a man who knows what he wants and works hard to get it-including the chance to be with moi. My username is elle85, and as a woman, I approve this message!!!!!
@Mace – when we start looking to the animal kingdom as our guide to social mores, we’re in a lot of trouble. The “man’s role” in those systems is also usually to kill the offspring of their rivals… should I do that too?
@ Deborah: “Men tend to be singularly minded like that and only able to focus on one thing at a time. Scientific studies have proven over and over again that this is how the male brain works.”
Are these the same studies that “proved” women can’t do math and are prone to bouts of hysteria? Sigh. Is this 1910 or 2010? Maybe we should have career counselors measure the bumps on my head with calipers to tell me which profession I’m most suited for (clearly not anything requiring multitasking).
Either you or I was born in the wrong century… where’s a flux capacitor when you need one?
I can understand gender roles making social interaction more simple for everyone involved, but I think risk, complexity, and difference are what make life so interesting.
In the animal kingdom, the males ALWAYS pursue the females, rarely do you see the females pursue the males. We as ‘human’ animals should be no different just because we possess a higher order of thinking, when it comes to mate selection, we still can’t circumvent the natural order of things the way Mother Nature intended. Just as in the animal kingdom,, the males that display the most virile traits will get to mate, so then it is the same as with humans. Men who don’t step up and go after the woman of their interest will lose out and often that woman will end up with the male that displays those male traits that females find attractive, confidence, virility, etc… A man on the sideline waiting for a woman to ask ‘him out’ comes off as weak and insecure to that woman and doesn’t show any of those attractive traits. Women want men to show their interest.
Men who feel a woman should ask them out is asking for women to take on the ‘man’s role when it comes to dating and mating and that folks is not the natural order of things. Men talk about women don’t let men be ‘men’ well here is your chance in the most basic primal way possible to demonstrate your manliness and that is doing what comes natural, pursuing your chosen mate. Men watch a few nature shows and see how the males in the wild go all out to get to mate for the female and Go get ‘men!
I have have to side with the women on this one. If you stand on the wall your whole life you will never meet anyone who will challenge you to become a better person. Like the lotto…you have to play to win.
I think that a woman who won’t approach a man is afraid of rejection. If men are expected to ovcercome that fear I think that women should, too.