Why Weak Men Want Submissive Women

| 10/05/2009 | Comments (55)

For the past week I’ve participated in a lively exchange on the issue of female submission in romantic relationships. The source of the conflict was a V-log posting by Shanel Cooper (no relation … that I know of anyway) entitled Your Power is in Submission

Judging by the comments posted, I am apparently in the minority in my thinking. Many of the male posters cosigned in droves. They were quite excited to find a woman willing to submit to men, and who was openly encouraging other women to do the same.

I couldn’t get on board with the nonsense.

First of all, the references to submission in “a relationship” were inaccurate. Though I am not religious, even I know that the Bible specifically references “wife” and “husband” when it instructs on submission. This fact automatically rules out all those wanna be the boss baby daddy knucklehead types who think that all females should categorically submit to all males. For those women that ascribe to the doctrine of submission by females, be sure that you limit your submission to the one man that steps up and makes you his wife.

However, submission is not something I advocate for women at all. I heard from several men and women online and offline that perhaps I was looking at the whole thing wrong, that submission wasn’t always negative, and that it means that a couple is cooperating. In reality the words “cooperation” and “submission” have two entirely different meanings:

Submission: (1) the act of submitting, yielding, or surrendering; (2) the quality or condition of being submissive; resignation; obedience; meekness; (3) the act of submitting to the authority or control of another: “Oppression that cannot be overcome does not give rise to revolt but to submission” (Simone Weil); (4) the condition of having submitted to the power of someone else; (5) the condition of being submissive, humble, or compliant.

Cooperation: (1) an act or instance of working or acting together for a common purpose or benefit; joint action; (2) to work or act together; (3) to assist or be willing to assist. However, cooperation may be coerced (forced), voluntary (freely chosen), or even unintentional, and consequently individuals and groups might cooperate even though they have few goals or values in common. Examples are wars, families, jobs, schools and prisons… any institution or organization of which individuals are a part due to free will and their own choice, by law, or by force.

In other words, a man might gain a woman’s cooperation and/or submission by physically assaulting her, threatening to assault her, by threatening to take her children from her, or even to leave her. This type of manipulation happens frequently when the male’s primary goal is to gain the upper hand, to feel powerful, and to have others submit to his desires and will… to WIN.

(continued on page 2 below)

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Deborrah

Veteran social researcher, relationship advice columnist, author and radio host. Author of hundreds of articles on American and black culture, gender issues, singles, dating and relationships. Author of "Sucka Free Love!" , "The 24 Types of Suckas to Avoid," and "The Black Church - Where Women Pray and Men Pray" all available on Amazon.Com. Her unique voice and insightful commentary have delighted fans and riled haters for 20 years. Read her stuff on Examiner.Com, SurvivingDating.Com and AskHeartBeat.Com.

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Category: Women's Issues

49 comments
chrissibug123
chrissibug123

In the bible women are to be subissive but weak but have a mind of thier own.

chrissibug123
chrissibug123

I also  have a group I lead on fetlife a bdsm group called the 1950's lifestyle with a thousand people I give advice I have seen women that been hurt in the lifestyle  of bdsm all  they need is someone to watch over them I have a  Dom friend that does that for me. I had a master before I was trained in to the lifestyle also but this was what I wanted no one forced me because I was born a submissive you can't just wake up and say I am a sub. I am in to pain and pleasure and being whiped but this done out of love not abuse if its not your thing then don't do it but I am not locked in a cage 24/7 i still live my life and in private I am a submissive. Women can still have a life and a job and have freedom with a man in the lifestyle all it takes is trust and earning some ones hurt. Every one is different  in the lifestyle and I feel things should be agreed on so the the women knows what she is getting just as the man. Both people have to happy or it will not last. I have also been to bdsm clubs and thier are couples that come out in to the seen and share thier life just as anyone else. The men that make a girl get on cam and get naked tell them if they don't or they wont meet them or be with them they are a user a guy that just want to get off a real man would treat you with respect and wait for you and take you to dinner and get to you. women are worth more then rubys we are not animals we are maid from men we all need respect. cuddling, going to dinner or when its play time in the bdsm seen its up to you and your partner. Some people are mentally unstable and they dont want to settle down they just want to control a women and throw her in a age and take her out when he wants to he will pimp her out that is not real love that is brain washing.

chrissibug123
chrissibug123

I have been in the lifestyle for 10 years thier are men that pose to be a good master but you can not tel la women to get on her kness and obey at first it takes time and a women needs to have a mind of her own because no one can be a control freak.

ClayChilde
ClayChilde

i know this article was written 3 years ago, but I have to respond to feminist drivel which is acutely adolescent and immature. I’m almost embarrassed. And reading the comments from fellow (sorry, sister) feminists... well, it makes me wince.

 

It’s all a question of opposites and energy flow which you would know if you were versed in Tantra, or had any real relationships. The masculine is positive, power, force... the feminine is negative (in a polar sense), yielding and passivity. The submissive, or yielding, woman is a beautiful woman – not to be emotionally or physically abused, but to be loved. Weak men either abuse or want to be abused. The truly strong man is a noble man requiring a noble woman who understands herself and her sexuality.

 

And of course, it’s about human nature, something of which the adolescent feminist knows NOTHING. It amazes me how sterile feminist thought really is. The victim of feminist brainwashing is unwilling, or unable, to break into the real world - the world of human nature and common sense where grown-up women stop parroting feminist doctrine like brainless automatons and no longer suffer from Obsessive Gender-Studies Syndrome.

Jeremy
Jeremy

Question:

Where does BDSM go into on this?

Reading over comments, I'm a little perturbed at the 'One way or the Other' line of thought that seems to be so prevalent.

I have a happy, healthy relationship with my girlfriend. It's not perfect, but we've worked together and have made great strides in our respective careers. Marriage is something of a topic beneath the surface, but that's a mox-nix. We may or may not.

But, asides the point really - We've both made compromises in our personal lives. I quit smoking and cut out some (with hindsight) very bad 'friends' whom I didn't need in my life.

I've gotten her into dancing, made her go easy on the drinking and we've both set up a regular work-out routine for the two of us.

Is the fact she's submitted or even compromised to some things I've asked of her make her a submissive, spineless woman? I have to say, if you honestly believe that to be the case, you're going to sound a little radical.

Now, that's all just IRL, our personal and professional lives out in the day.

As for the bedroom? - She happens to have a kink for light bondage, whips, etc. Mild to Moderate BDSM. And a LOT of women (and even some men) happen to have this kink. They're all 'socialized' brainless drones?

I've only forced my GF into doing something she didn't want to do ONCE due to a mistake, I reconciled and made up for it soon afterwards and felt terrible about it.

Now, I'd also ask you to take two seconds to go actually read up on BDSM - any experienced individual will tell you that it is the SUBMISSIVE who holds the power there, they're the ones who have the power to say NO. To hold the safe word and whether they even wish to partake in it or NOT.

Judging from some of the other comments I've seen on this. - I'd get the idea you all think I'm some sort of serial rapist. At least some individuals would gleefully jump to that conclusion.

Just oei.

Speaking for myself at least, I keep my Bedroom and Professional life private. My girlfriend is able to make her own decisions, and we work together on harder things. (I.E. - One of our larger discussions in marriage (or NOT) is that her company offers a better health package than mine.)

Blagh. - Anyways, Yes I'd agree there are some weak, spineless men out there who pretty much want the fictionalized 'Yes maid.' - Have you watched Hentai or other such things? Good god, they start taking that shit as a fact.

The only other thing I'd ask is that you try to be a bit more subjective. - I don't think you're being inflammatory to promote discussion, some of your comments reek of misandry, on a personal level. If I'm wrong, feel free to cite how and why.

But really, extremism on either end is just cancerous to everyone.

Carol
Carol

Excellent article and great comments.

Barbra
Barbra

As I submissive woman let me tell you that you have got it all wrong, and on so many levels.

caleb
caleb

male submissive here. I believe that you should definitely put much thought into it. Men are not necesarily very strong. There are us weak men too, the major points i thought about before i went into my relationship were not very different from these points here. I had to first consider whether i should trust Her or not. i thought about whether icould handle it physically, mentally, and emotionally. I honestly dont see a problem with D/s relationships.

tricia
tricia

Wow – I originally thought that I was reading an article about submissive women (one more of many), as I enjoy getting different viewpoints. Then it became quite clear that what I was really reading is yet another Man bashing article. But unlike the ordinary, run of the mill Man bashing – this one added a new twist – bashing women who actually like Men.

Then – somewhere within the banter it stopped being about women and became about black women. Hmmm … I’m guessing that because I’m “just” a woman and not a “black woman” I probably won’t be given much credit for having my own opinion. Yes that’s right – “my” opinion – not one fed to me by a Man – but rather one I formed all on my own.

I am no longer under the delusions of youth – those days have passed – along with the “idea” of being a “superwoman”. Yes – I’m an intelligent, educated woman and have held powerful positions with many employees. I have put in the hours, made the decisions, both at work and at home. It had its highs and gratifying moments – but at the end of the day – it was lonely. And why shouldn’t it have been? After all – I’m a woman and can do anything a Man can. Well – everything but make me feel like a woman. Instead – I felt like I was spinning my wheels, and I wasn’t happy. I wanted to take care of my home and my family – that is where my heart really lied. But – I was too busy to be bothered to be what I wanted to be (submissive) – instead I was being what “society” was saying I should be (Dominant).

I have witnessed many families (including my own) fall apart because there were too many Chiefs in the household. Families torn apart because it was more important for the woman to have a career and advance in the workplace, instead of doing the one job that was more important than any other – raising their children and taking care of their families.

It amazes me that so many “intelligent” people don’t get it. It’s not easy being a submissive – but it is very rewarding and worth every bit of it. It isn’t about being a “slave” (unless that is your desire) to a Man – it’s about caring, honoring and respecting Him as a Man. The tradeoff can be wonderful – if (like any relationship) you’re with the right Man for you. And if you actually stop and think about it – being a Man isn’t exactly a stroll in the park. When a Man takes on the responsibility of taking care of His woman – He has to be attentive to her needs and provide for her. Is it really so bad that in return He expects to be taken care of as well?

Now don’t get me wrong – there are some men out there that are real jerks and use it as an excuse to be abusive. But ladies – any real Man will tell you – that kind of person is not a man but rather nothing more than a male. Big difference! A real Man does not degrade, denigrate, abuse physically, verbally or emotionally that which He treasures more than anything – His woman and His family. He will take a great deal of pride in having such a wonderful person by His side. He will take great pride in knowing that He is Man enough for her to want to submit to. Not because He tells her to – but because she loves and trusts that He is not only qualified to do it – but is going to do it. (Not an easy thing to find.)

It has been mentioned that Men fear women and that is why they want a submissive woman. I’m sorry – but I think it’s more like women fear being women, and having a Man that is a Man, and that is why they choose to not be submissive. Although I must admit – I do like the definition of submission being love. Perhaps we should expand on that just a little to include honor and respect.

Just as a little closing thought – ladies – if you are so against submission – why do you expect your Men to be submissive to you?

Will
Will

Looik, ladies, it's very, very simple. it's my house, I own it. I'm the one that paid for it with my money.
It's my money. I'm the one who worked for it, not you. Therefore I make the rules. If you want to be in MY house, you follow my rules. It's a privelage for you to be in my house, so don't ever forget that.
If you want to stay in my house, you put my needs and desires first, ok? You DON'T rearrainge my house to suit you, you DON'T tell me what to do in MY house. Show a little gratitude, ok? Remember, you can always be replaced by a younger, hotter model at any given time. I worked very hard to get where I am and what I've got, and no one is going to tell me what to do with it.

Ber
Ber

I'm on the fence with this one. Althought I agree the video messenger is using the wrong word, i understand where she is trying to go with it. Sidebar...I wear heels when I clean house. I've been doing it since I was 17...it's fun and I do it for myself. I enjoy my sexuality whenever I can. ...

Ok with that said, there is power in a woman's sexuality, in her softness, in her ability to listen, nurture, persuade, be firm yet gentle. There's great power in her tenderness. Often I hear people taking these delicate qualities and mistaking them for subservient behavior.

I look at relationships like I look at business sometimes. Sometimes there's a need for someone to make an executive decision minus other input and sometimes there's a need for partnership and collaboration. Neither way can sustain without respect for the other party(ies) involved.

I have heard for a long time I need to let a man be a man. It took me a very long time to grasp that. I finally realized a few things... A real man, confident man won't have this kind of power struggle with me. I will feel no need to assert myself or to take control over every situation because he will do what he needs to prove he is an equal partner. I will be confident in allowing him to take the wheel at times. He will be mindful and attentive, just as I will. We together will take care of each other's needs, protect each other however the moment assigns it. I will allow him to show me he cares through his tradition (opening up doors, walking on the outside, whatever it may be) and I will allow myself and find pleasure in showing him I care through my own tradition...be it cooking, cleaning, or bringing home the bacon, or whatever.

I'm laughing as I type this because my current relationship to an outside person seems very "submissive". Yet i'm empowered because I know what it took to get to where we are. I am not the arguing type, I am not the jump through hoops to show you what I have to offer type. I don't need to roar to make a statement. After walking out on him with no words...he came to realize I was not being meek or passive but baskin in my feminity and requiring him to appreciate and honor the very thing I love about being a female. I can list all the things he does for me and I do for him that to an outsider would make me look rather weak and incapable of taking care of myself. That's fine... but I think the word she needs use is "love". Love is a selfless act. It looks like submission but it's far more powerful.

We're here to benefit one another... I am not a fan of the "I am woman, hear me roar" mantra nor the infamous "i'm a grown ass man". Within both lies the need to control, the feeling of inferiority, and much room for personal growth.

Dee
Dee

oh and I am not a holy roller nor big in the church. I am a man who handles his business before anybody starts typing hateful messages.

Dee
Dee

The only part I do not agree with in this article is the underlying tones of where men are beneath women in everything except physical strength. There are men who have it together and doing the right things just as there are women who do not have anything on the ball at all. The points of the article to me are more on what you believe but this underlying issue of women being that much better than men just because a few men screw up is unacceptable to me.

CLite
CLite

Submission means 'embracing the traditional roles of women in a relationship?!?' OK - I stopped the video at that. Enuf said. I've heard all that I need to hear of her and it didn't take 60 seconds.

I just stumbled on this site from a link on a message board. First - Thank you Deborah for such a well written piece - it was the only reason I clicked on that video (to reference your article) although admittedly I couldn't stomach much of the video. It's good to know that I'm not the only woman who's skin crawls when hearing the word 'submission.'

I JUST broke up with a man who claimed "I had an opinion for everything." His words were, 'if I wanted us to work I need to let him have the final word ALL THE TIME, let him 'be the man, and stop being so 'opinionated.' Although I'm a very spiritual person I have not (since my adult life) been into organized religion for the simple fact that women have very little voice and are relegated to the background. That was also a thorn of contention between he and I. He felt if I attended church or mosque (he went back and forth from one to the other) that I would know my 'place' more.

He got to the point where he disliked my friendship with a mutual male friend. Now to put our friendship in perspective this man (he now disliked) has always introduced me as his sister, and was the very same man who introduced us. There has NEVER, EVER been anything but friendship between us - as I am friends with both he and his wife. But all of the sudden my new man didn't like me talking to any other men, especially the one who introduced us. Insecure much?!?! (Control issue #1)

He expected me to call him the moment I walked through the door at work - even when I explained I had morning meetings with my boss. I said, I could call you once I get settled and after our meeting (which take about 10-15 minutes) - but that wasn't enough. He wanted me to check-in with him instantly. (Control issue #2)

I walk, almost daily, at a par course that I've walked at for almost 15 years. It is safe, open, and to my knowledge there has never been any violence at this spot. Now all of the sudden my new man has to drive me to this course and each time I round the corner he wants me to acknowledge him as he sits in the car. The moment he doesn't see me come around the corner the arguments start when I get in the car. Didn't I tell you to wave at me when you came by!!! I explained over and over again, I don't need you to follow me every step I make. Nor am I a child that needs to report to you each time I circle the course. Now this was not about safety by any means - it was about me following his rules. If he was that concerned about my safety he would have walked with me. (Control issue #3)

When I came home from work he expected me to 'check-in' with him. If I didn't there was another argument. Yet this same man went home (DC) for the weekend without even telling me, because he was yet again mad at some opinion I had before he left. So although I have to give him play by play of my every movement, in his mind it was perfectly OK for him to leave the state without telling me (Control issue #4)

At first I didn't mind his input on what I wore. Then it got to the point when we went out that he would lay my clothes out for me. If I selected another item - he'd complain about what I chose. (Control issue #5)

He constantly threw up in my face how the female members of his mosque complained that we were 'sinning' because they assumed we were having sex outside of marriage. So to avoid these embarrassing discussions with the members of his faith, he repeatedly told folks we were 'engaged' and that I would soon join his church/mosque. WE never discussed marriage. He said we would get married, but WE never discussed marriage. We had too many issues in my book to even consider marriage - yet HE decided to tell folks we were engaged (Control issue - ah, I'm loosing count there were so many control issues!)

It got to the point where we couldn't maintain a normal conversation. What I consider 'conversing' he considered me being overly opinionated. Why don't you just let me have the last word sometimes - you always have to have some thing to say. I'm like - we're just discussing things - we aren't arguing. This is what normal folks call 'talking.'

If I made a suggestion as to where to take my car for repair, he'd drive it to a completely different spot - just to go against what I asked. Was he paying for the service - naw. And he would lead me to believe that he was taking it where I asked. Heaven forbid I know of a better spot than he did.

I have a house, and he rented his place - yet after meeting his minister this man informed my 'man' that I was a very independent sistah who would probably never sell my house to marry him. And in the eyes of the minister it was the man who should own the house. We argued about that constantly. "I know you'll never sell your house!" Why would I sell my house?!?!? You have none - so it's not like I could move in with him. Tho, I love my house and even if he had a house, I wouldn't jump to move in with him. And in my opinion this was a moot point because he rented and didn't own. WTF do I look like giving up my home on the hopes that one day he could purchase a home for us?!? The fact that I was doing something on my own bothered him to no end.

Before we separated I told him - since you spend so much time with ministers, you need to find you a church woman. One that you can control. One that has no opinion. One that needs your permission on how to dress, where to go, who to talk to, and how long to stay. Why try to convert me when your church is full of women begging to be controlled?

It's amazing now that what he claimed attracted him to me was my strength and intelligence, yet within a matter of months those same 'qualities' became something that drove him crazy.

He really fooled me. He seemed so balanced in the beginning. We often spoke of what we could do 'together' - yet the more time we spent together the more I realized he was looking for a robot that he could wind up on command. Some one that needed to be directed on every aspect of her life. One that lived to submit.

A healthy relationship is about what TWO individuals can do together. It's certainly not about one aimlessly following another without question. I was NOT threatened about what he accomplished and I truly resented him being so controlling and threatened about what I have done.

So he's gone now - and thank the Lord (his and mine). I pray that he has found that woman that he can lead around and never tries to contact me or enter my life again. The world is full of plenty of women who pray for a man like him. To me he was a nightmare that couldn't tolerate any independent thought or action from a woman.

Me - I'm fine! I know I'll have no problem finding a real, confident brotha that will appreciate all I have to offer. A man that doesn't believe my strength is his weakness. Someone who is looking for a healthy union.

ginae
ginae

Thanks for writing this. I am an 'ex' holy roller, so believe me when I say you are right on! Women birth the world. We GIVE BIRTH to men. How on earth can we be inferior? Please wake up brothers. Our ancestors were MADE to submit to the white man's religion, and he really created a monster! QUESTION these beliefs that were beaten into our ancestor's heads. YOU HAVE A CHOICE.

We black women do have the money, the education, and the strength. Why on earth would we submit to men who don't have it together? I can tell you from experience that 90%of men don't. I am sure some ill evolved brother will come with: "that's why you ain't got no man!" "ain't no man gonna want you". Whatever. Understand that we women have choices, its not just you. Why not make yourselves into something desirable ? We need more than just a d**k. We need the whole package too!

I do not hate black men--I love them! The smart ones will know that what this sister is saying has a lot of merit.

Peace!

SinTheGlobalPandemic
SinTheGlobalPandemic

The author of this blog sounds like a very rebellious sinful woman. Your life is not about what you want but what God has ordained. You will submit in this life or the next, under the mighty hand of God the Father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ or you will submit to satan, period. The reason why our world is in Sin is because of women who had the thought pattern of Eve to disobey and rebel. You need to repent of your Sins and ask God to forgive you.

Jennifer
Jennifer

Oh, and BTW. My family first purchased land here in the state of Texas in 1873, and we've never left. My family was country before country was cool. I was born with a coffee can of lard in one hand and a cast iron skillet in the other hand, and I guarantee you that my flat-footed ass could outcook Stilletto Girl by the time I was 13. Fellas, if your lady is teetering around your kitchen in heels, check your garbage can. That's where you'll find the receipt for all that food she just put on the table.

Jennifer
Jennifer

One thing about single black women - we seem to have a LOT of money, and we're willing to throw it away to anybody who will tell us what's 'wrong' with us. Shanel pulls double duty: not only does she sell the whole "submission" package (which gets props from the fellas), she wraps it in a package that makes it enticing to black women by appealing to our femininity, something the mainstream (read: white) media never does when addressing women of color. Very impressive - too bad it's bunk. You know who wears stilettos in the kitchen? Women who can't cook and are trying too damn hard, that's who. Raz hit it dead on this head - she's Sarah Palin in (fake) Louboutins.

Submit, if that's your thing and it works for you, but stop trying to tell scores of other women that they're wrong for not doing so. And it's interesting that Shanel never really talks about her mate - I can't ever seem to find a straight answer to whether she's married - like REALLY married, with a certificate and what - or not.

Raz
Raz

What gets me is how much like sheep people are. Judging from the comments on her Youtube video page, many men and women believe this stuff from this woman's mouth just because 'she said it'. Here she is a cosmotologist. (not that there is anything wrong with that) but I doubt seriously she's had any type of higher education or varied experience that gives her credibility to talk this noise she's talking. She seems like she's not too far removed from being a newly wed and probably not even 30 yet spouting all of this nonsence as if it was the gospel. What does she know? Yet people buy into what she's saying. Now I see the Sarah Palin phenomenon in effect. If someone is reasonably attractive, and charismatic , they too can be a 'used car salesman and sell, sand in the desert.

This lady is idealistic probably hasn't been married all that long. I checked out her other videos on Youtube and they are all aimed at 'serving that man' keeping him happy. She has a few videos where she puts down women yet she says she is empowering them. She's promoting her book "Stilettos in the Kitchen". While I applaud her entrepreneurial endeavors, I think she has things backwards. Women are put on pedastals, not men. She acts as though she is soo glad to be married, she will walk through hell in a gasoline suit for her man. Heaven forbid if she loses her looks or he cheats on her, she'll lose her freaking mind, take off that stiletto and imbed it upside his head. Especially since she has raised this dude up so far in her mind, while subsequently mentally putting herself below him. Never do that!!

Even our President of the U.S. has his wife on a pedestal and she has often said in interviews, before he became President when he was running and when he was a Senator, that he still had chores to do in the house. She kept his feet on the ground by reminding him, that he is not above her. President Obama worships his wife for who she is as a woman and not because she brought him a plate of food wearing Stilettos. (I doubt she even wears heels as tall as she is LOL) But First Lady Michelle is a successful smart Ivy league grad attorney and successful, intelligent and accomplished in her own right. She didn't need Obama to make her into the woman she is today, she was already that women.

I look at my own sister as inspiration. Her husband is what I call a traditional man. He was the bread winner in the family for years. My sister worked when she wanted and kept her own bank account and still does. He has his, and she has hers. He is the one who cooks in the home because he is an excellent cook and took professional cooking courses. When they have family get togethers he is the one who does all of the cooking. He can burn in the kitchen and he loves to cook too. He is also an all around handy man so guess who does the refurbishing and decorating in their home? He does. He is all man where it counts too. He doesn't expect my sister to be some docile subservient woman towards him. When my sister needs some time out to take a hot bubble bath soak, she can do that and rest assured that dinner will be on the tablee. BTW, they've been married for over 20 years!

When he met my sister, she was attending a community college and he was knocking about working in a custodial position. Yet he saw my sister, who was friends with his sister who was also taking classes at that college. He wanted a chance with my sister, but he knew before he approached her, that he needed to get his act together. He did, He went on to school, joined the military before he approached her. In other words he 'manned up'. He had my sister on a pedastal. She was someone he felt he had to 'step up his game' in order to win her. This is as it should be. So far, they've had a successful marriage (no bed of roses what marriage is), raised their children and they are blessed. Good Lord willing I hope it continues.

When women start defining their worthiness by a man, and when they marry that man and start embracing a subservient attitude, that is when they go into doormat mode. Men don't find this attractive just as women don't find henpecked men attractive. You can wear all the stilettos and tight leggings you want, while serving him a 5 course meal, but if he doesn't find you mentally stimulating, if he doesn't find you fascinating, you won't hold his interest. He'll take what you have to offer and go be around someone who engrosses him. You can't 'serve' your way into a man's heart and once you get him and you can't continue to serve your way into keeping him. You become his 'servant' not his companion, not his wife. A man loves you for you regardless.

This woman doesn't seem to get that. She strikes me as someone who 'maybe married up' and she is so grateful that her 'man' chose her that she is out to teach all the rest of us women just what we need to do and just how we need to be in order to 'get and keep a man'.

She's got a lot to learn. Life will be her teacher, give it a few years. Let's see how much she'll be into being 'servant girl with her hubby when the kids come, and he is still expecting 'king of the hill treatment' and now she's got to divide her time between him and the babies. 'Kings' don't like to have their time and attention taken from them even by their own offspring especially once a woman 'trains' them to be a certain way. I hope she has a successful marriage but this mindset of hers is not what we should be teaching our young girls out there.

Patricia
Patricia

I don't get why the woman in the video seems to believe that women cannot love, be good moms, nor create a good home, without submitting. She is flat wrong.

Deborrah
Deborrah moderator

 @ClayChilde You are using definitions of words created by men. MEN decided what is masculine and what is feminine, not women. So I can now, as a woman in 2012, decide that your definition is bullshit and denounce it. You can ascribe to that nonsense if you wish, but it has no bearing on my reality. What is female is strength, power, dynamic energy, creativity, love, communication, emotional intelligence, analytical intelligence, use of both sides of the brain, and the ability to bring forth life. What do men have? Brawn and aggression. Don't think women can't get aggressive too though! Watch what a woman does if you try to hurt her baby she will kick your ass.  And you say the word 'feminist' like its a disease. LOLOL! Typical control freak trying to feel superior and garner your sense of manhood by putting women into a basket of weakness and fluff. Pahleeze! I will go toe to toe with any man any day about anything. There has not been a man born that is tougher than me. The fact that you all can only feel like men if a woman is weak and docile and submissive shows how paltry and weak you really are.  Every woman should be a feminist. Every man as well. Because the meaning of feminist is a person that advocates women be treated equally. But since you think such a concept is evil and to be labeled a feminist something to be ashamed of, it show you don't really understand what a feminist is. Let your daughter be submissive and weak to some fool man. See how much you like seeing her used and talked to crazy. Somehow when men see things in their own beloved daughters, the light comes on and that's when you all get a clue how stupid you really are.

Fuzzy Frisson
Fuzzy Frisson

 @ClayChilde I do agree with you regarding your second paragraph.  For me, with relationships the issue is not about having 'equal rights' to men or outdoing them socioeconomically but a simple equilibrium, particularly emotionally, entitatively and spiritually, with them.  A strong (and attractive) man knows to nurture, honour and protect his female partner accordingly in the body, mind and soul while the woman not only edifies those three aspects of him too but is also safe, secure and strengthened by that very man enough to trust him WITH her body, mind and soul.  It's a concord of mutual enrichment, where both parties are equal in love and honour.  The problem comes when abuse and exploitation creep into that supposed concord and the focus shifts from the other to the ego.

Fuzzy Frisson
Fuzzy Frisson

The relationship you described with your girlfriend sounds like one of mutual compromise, which is not a problem whatsoever.  That is the whole point of any relationship: a union between two individuals where middle ground and mutuality result from give-and-take.  In that case, I wouldn't call it a 'submissive' relationship.  Besides compromise, other key ingredients to a relationship are empathy, respect, awareness and above all, love, which should be mutual.

 

The real problem arises when in a relationship, Person A demands that Person B vacates all awareness and right to self to essentially be under the control of Person A, worsening with Person A using negative methods constantly (e.g. coercion, subjugation, intimidation) to ensure that happens.  What further exacerbates this is when Person A is not responsible, trustworthy, empathetic, caring, strong or (self-)aware enough to assume any supposed 'leadership' role, thus jeopardising the welfare of Person B.  Where are the respect and love in that setup?

 

This 'deity complex' is usually seen in those with low self-esteem and to hide both their weakness and mortification of that, they project their negativity onto another person, attempting to destructively manipulate their character.  By doing so, they can feel assured they are not the 'only one' with a problem as well as try to create a quasiperfect fantasy that nobody - not even they themselves - can reach.  It all relates to true egocentricity, which has no place in any relationship.

Deborrah
Deborrah

We are not talking about a lifestyle that people BOTH WILLINGLY CHOOSE TO LIVE to enhance their sexual experience. That is not at all what I am talking about and you know it. The males I am talking about would not allow a female to choose to participate in BDSM, they would demand that she acquiesce to their desires because she is supposed to be submissive like God says, because she is a woman and he is the man. He will have no challenges to his authority because he is the man, dammit!

You are missing the entire point here. Hopefully now that I have explained it, you can go back and read the article with fresh eyes and ears, and better grasp the concepts.

Deborrah Cooper
Deborrah Cooper

Barbara, you choose to be a carpet and lay under some man's feet. Other women do not choose to do that. Does not make either of us wrong. However I caution you to make sure what you are describing as "submissive" does not lead you down the path of being disrespected, taken for granted, and emotionally abused by your man. Many of these guys that insist on "submission" actually refuse to accept that a woman has a voice, desires, and interests that he doesn't like, prescribe for her or approve of. And if you are a woman that gives up everything because your man doesn't like it or want you to do it - then you are not submissive, you are a damn fool.

Raz
Raz

As a submissive woman, you don't know any viewpoint but being under the rule of a man. Therefore you have no credibility to speak to women who don't buy into that submissive mindset Barbra

filmraven
filmraven

tricia,

How interesting that you chose to capitalize the word "Man," but not "woman." Or did someone else make that choice for you?

marcus
marcus

I agree 100% with tricia. Those are the type of women that would have a healthy long lasting relationship. black women need to be more supportive. I am engaged to a latina women and she treats me like a king and very family oriented and I treat her like my queen and make sure she gets the full attention that she needs. There are no head of household because we both do our part and we work together. I am truly blessed to have her apart of my life.

Raz
Raz

Tricia: ". I have put in the hours, made the decisions, both at work and at home. It had its highs and gratifying moments – but at the end of the day – it was lonely."

A man doesn't make you feel 'less lonely'. Loneliness is a state of mind. Plenty married women are lonely because they are depending on their man to 'fill a hole in their lives. Only you can do that. You are putting to much pressure on someone to 'make you happy and feel less lonely. That's your job.

Tricia: "’I'm a woman and can do anything a Man can. Well – everything but make me feel like a woman. "
Only you can make yourself feel like a woman. How can a man make you feel like a woman when he is a man? Again you are putting too much power and responsibility on a man to make you feel whole and that's 'your' job.

Tricia: "I felt like I was spinning my wheels, and I wasn’t happy. I wanted to take care of my home and my family – that is where my heart really lied.But – I was too busy to be bothered to be what I wanted to be (submissive) – instead I was being what “society” was saying I should be (Dominant).

Submissiveness and dominance has nothing to do with taking care of your family or your state of happiness. This is some old male patriarchy talk that you've bought into. A woman can take care of her family, have a loving partnership with her husband without 'submitting mentally'. She can still have her own mind. Men like to brainwash women into this submissive mindset and to use those terms submissiveness and dominance because it places the men in a 'power position' over women. If men think 'submissiveness is so great, then why don't they assume that role in relationships and marriages and family? A woman doesn't have to default to submissiveness anymore than a man defaults to dominance. This is all society gender roles that have been ingrained in women.

Your family fell apart not because of 'two many chiefs', but because of lack of the 3 C's communication, compromise and cooperation. If you've run this successful business as you've claimed then you should know those are key components to the success of any organization including a family. And a family, a household is an organization that needs those components to be successful. The 3 C's should come from both man and woman, not one doing all of it and the other not doing anything. You're the one who 'doesn't get it' and you've convinced yourself that your marriage is successful because you have to be 'bossed' over (which is what submit means) by your husband. Sooner or later women who put themselves in a position of submissiveness start to resent that. You aren't a child, you have a brain. Why would you want to be treated as though you have to be 'told' and you have no say so? That's not a healthy partnership.

You talk about caring, honoring and respecting him as a man, well what about his caring honoring and respecting you as a woman. Submit does not in any kind of way mean love, this is just some old stuff you're telling yourself in order to feel better about letting the man dictate to you. It's your tradeoff. You get very little voice, while he has final say so and most of the voice. And you think that's love. Keep fooling yourself. Women don't need men 'submitting to them, nor do men need women submitting to them. What they both need is a working partnership with the three 'C's.

Deborrah Cooper
Deborrah Cooper

My stance is that no one need be "submissive" to the other. The relationship should be a partnership, where both parties have important views, opinions, and each respects the other's on a par. Because a man has a dick does not make him superior and there is no reason to submit to him on that one point. His brain is no better, his financial acumen no higher, his list of accomplishments no longer, and his way of doing things does not equate to superior merely because he is a male. That is the part you don't get.

And it is not that I don't like men - I love men! What I do not like at all (despise actually), is the mentality many men have that women are required to dumb themselves down and be less so that he can present himself as large and in charge. I do not like males like that and have no problem letting it be known. Men that think they are entitled to have what they want from women, and that women can never tell them "no!" or "fuck off!" are not men I would want to be bothered with.

Men have been SOCIALIZED (as have you) to think that they are better and more important than women. They are not. Submission is not love, it is stupidity. And any women that thinks submitting to a man because he wants it and that it equates to showing love and respect is deluded.

You are stuck in some 1512 mentality where men are defined and presented as strong against a woman's weakness. I believe if a man is so strong, let him show it by standing alongside a woman that has strength just like he does. It is easy to look strong if you are standing next to someone that is spineless, weak, indecisive, insecure and who thinks she is nothing without a man. That is no challenge and requires no smarts or energy at all! Of course men like women like that because men are lazy and that woman makes it easy for him to fulfill the image he has of himself of being better than females.

You will never read an article on this site that suggests that women make themselves inferior or submissive to males in any way, shape or form. However, if you want to be submissive, that's your choice and you are entitled to it.

Just know that other women do not wish to make that choice. Just like you think other women are wrong for not choosing to submit to a man, we think you are crazy for the choice you make. It doesn't divorce or cheat proof your marriage, doesn't make you a better woman, doesn't bring you achievements or glory or make you proud of yourself - being submissive does nothing for a woman but make her a mirror for a man to bounce his ego off.

You can keep that.

Ber
Ber

My brotha, you need therapy. I hope with all seriousness that these are not your true thoughts and feelings. You must have fell and bumped your head several times and I mean several times.

Reread what you wrote and then come back to it and try that again. If you can't figure it out...you lack so much respect for yourself. Low self esteem!

jp
jp

Amen, love your style. Could not of express or said it better myself..

Deborrah Cooper
Deborrah Cooper

Why is it that men try to take over a conversation that is about women? This is not about you, but since you wrote let me respond. Women are indeed stronger than men. The infant mortality rate for males is higher than females. Women live longer than men. Women are better than men.

Men know it too which is why in their envy they try to squelch women at every opportunity and beat them into submission with words, quotes from some book, or their fists. Women don't do that, which also makes women better than men. Of course not every single person in the world fits the description, that should go without saying. For you to assume a defensive posture and even comment on something so obvious is rather goofy don't you think?

filmraven
filmraven

The bible was written by men to suit the purposes of men. The collective female pain-body reflects millenia of female oppression. According to the bible, which was written by men, we are predestined for Heaven or Hell (you might consult the book of Romans, Chapter 9). This predestination would include "Adam and Eve" and their supposed "choosing" to "sin." The fact is, the bible, which was written by men, makes it clear that it was "God" "Himself" who created sin, as well as created "the Devil."

According to the bible, which was written by men, not only are we born sinful, but we are even sinful in the womb. And according to the bible, which was written by men, "the wages of sin is death" (i.e. everlasting doom in an eternal furnace). Quite a monstrous fate when one considers miscarriages, still births, infant deaths, and the death of young children.

The problem with subscribing to any man-made religion (and a more accurate description would be "political system") as an unquestionable dogma, is one must accept all of it; not pick and choose. Oh wait! I know! Quick! Somebody find an "age of accountability" scripture! Surely we can reinterpret SOMETHING so we don't have to send our kiddies to Hell!! Sadly, there is no such scripture. Hmmmmmmmm.

BTW, yes, I am fully aware that this is a discussion about "submission," but I think I made my point about dragging the "good book" into it :)

Deborrah
Deborrah

How do you know what God has ordained for me? You Holy Roller types think you know every damn thing and always want to tell other people what to do. If I am rebellious (which is exactly the way I am), then it means God made me this way. I would venture to say that I am on a mission from God to wake Black women and men that willingly follow false prophets and live their lives as meek, silly little sheep up. No good can ever come to the Black Americans in this country if they are always following, making decisions for their lives based on fear, and don't think for themselves.

You all sit up in church wasting your time, listening to that drivel spoken from crazy people that claimed they got "touched" and now have the right ear of God. Half them fools were in prison or slinging rocks 5 years ago but now they are your spiritual leader? Yeah ok.

Will
Will

What man wants to come home after a hard day at work and have someone dump on him? Not me, that's for sure. when I come home, I want to be met by a woman who respects me, and is happy to see me. The house is tidy and dinner is ready. Maybe she meets me at the door with a smile and a great big hug because she missed me while I was at work. She, of course, does not work, she keeps the house.

What on earth is there in marriage for men these days? Why should we marry you? What do you have to offer? I make enough money. My wife won't have to work, and she won't. If taking care of me isn't her top priority, why should I keep her around? Do you wonder why so many American men are going overseas to find wives? Because American women all seem to think that the way to treat a man is to treat him like a child or an animal. Only in America. there is no other country on earth where women treat their men as badly as y'all do. It's why the divorce rate is so high here.

Remember, a man can always find another woman to replace you, and she'll be younger, hotter, and treat him better. You'll just get old, and the older you get, the less desirable you are. And if you have kids? forget it. You'll never find a quality man after you've cranked out carbon copies of yourself. So, screw around all you want, have as many babies with as many losers that you want. You'll never get access to my bank accounts.

ClayChilde
ClayChilde

@Deborrah How vacuous and malformed are your opinions. Preaching to the converted with politically correct untruths may thrill your feminist sisters, but to everyone else it shows that your lob-sided take on life is as skewed as your feminist rant. 

 

You obviously have a deep hatred of men. Your rage and distorted view of masculinity and maleness is utterly self-defeating. You say “There has not been a man born that is tougher than me.” Do you not realise how sad this sounds? Your whole life revolves around the battle of the sexes - you must beat men at their own game by acting tough and aggressive, a playground mentality that displays a massive inferiority complex. For all your bluster you actually detest and loathe women. Your obsessive need to banish all weakness and kill off any sign of femininity makes you an empty shell of a woman. In my view femininity is not weakness, but quite the opposite. You might be able to beat one of those loathsome creatures called a man at arm-wrestling or drink him under the table, but femininity can bring him to his knees.

 

So stew in your pot of bile. There is no man or woman of reason who will listen to you.

curiousone8706
curiousone8706

Well then it isn't being a dominant in the relationship; it is being domineering, manipulative and abusive. And as for the BDSM lifestyle, it's not that different from vanilla- in fact many abusive men operate 'under' BDSM to take advantage of female submissives all because they have a title called "Sir" or "master". This is akin to Biblical teaching "submit to me because God says so" vs. "submit to me because I am an experienced Master and you're a submissive and all submissives submit to all Masters".

At first I was personally baffled and angered by your 'anti-submission' articles but then I reread them and learned that the key element here is that the female is not evaluating the man prior to getting into a relationship. In fact, the female may have a case of 'sub frenzy' in which she is so anxious to be in a relationship she leaves all common sense (and intuition)behind.  So the female submitting to a weaker man is a bigger problem than just biblical indoctrination.

topaz627
topaz627

what you described is a partnership, not submission. Being submissive isn't needed because as a team you two work together and support each other. I'm confused as to why you agree with the concept when you have re-defined it as partnership? This crap about black women not being supportive is just that, and generalizing all black women that you don't know is ridiculous. We can be supportive so stop taking pot shots at us because you have a non-black girlfriend you want to paint as a better woman.

Raz
Raz

Deborrah: "It is easy to look strong if you are standing next to someone that is spineless, weak, indecisive, insecure and who thinks she is nothing without a man."

Well Tricia did say at the end of the day, "she was lonely and she needed a man to make her feel like a woman". So with this type of weak minded mindset of course she is the exact type of woman who would buy into this 'submissiveness idea. Like you said, that mindset doesn't make a marriage any better or give it any type of advantage. Men cheat and divorce submissive mindset type of women all the time. This woman needs a man to make her feel like a woman and to make her feel less lonely. She isn't whole within herself. To me she sounds like she has low self esteem. Most women who buy into that submissive mindset tend to have low self esteem and they expect women who think highly of themselves to buy into this antiquated type of thinking. NOT.

tricia
tricia

First of all I suppose I should say thank you for giving me permission to make my own choice. Especially after you spent so much time on basically telling me that I'm stupid, crazy, and have been socialized. You have even gone so far as to infer that any woman who submits to a Man is "spineless, weak, indecisive, insecure and who thinks she is nothing without a man".

How dare you act as though your way of thinking is the only way of thinking. You are a very closed minded person that seems to be on a mission to make "every" woman think as you do ... or else they are all those degrading descriptive words you have chosen to use.

I think it is wonderful that you can bask in your womanhood in a fashion that is obviously befitting of you, and brings you great joy. Wouldn't it be nice if you could feel the same for others that can bask in their womanhood in a fashion that brings them joy?

I didn't say that I don't understand your point of view. I didn't call you degrading names for the way that feel and believe. Why did you feel the need to lash out at me in such a way? Did I hit a sore spot? Does my womanhood somehow threaten your womanhood? Does it bother you so much to know that there really are intelligent, educated women out here that enjoy Men and all they have to offer?

Perhaps you should take a couple of minutes to do a little self evaluation. And by the way - if i were truly socialized - i would be as closed minded on this subject as you.

Hibernia86
Hibernia86

Wow, Deborrah. This makes me lose any respect I might of had for you. Both genders can be strong. If you base your views on sexism and hate, then everything that comes from you is poison.

marcus
marcus

agree with will 100% finally a real man speaking the truth

Raz
Raz

Will: "What on earth is there in marriage for men these days? Why should we marry you? What do you have to offer? I make enough money. My wife won’t have to work, and she won’t. If taking care of me isn’t her top priority, why should I keep her around? Do you wonder why so many American men are going overseas to find wives? Because American women all seem to think that the way to treat a man is to treat him like a child or an animal. Only in America. there is no other country on earth where women treat their men as badly as y’all do. It’s why the divorce rate is so high here."

Will give it a rest, women make money own homes, can have babies and don't need marriage either. By all means go oversees and get some woman desperate to come to America to be your wife. Trust American women could give less than a dayum. The real question is what is in it for women to marry these days? What do you have to offer besides some dyck now and then and a woman doesn't need to marry you for that. You act like it's 1940 instead of 2010 where women are outearning men, better educated than men and holding their own. You act like a woman should be honored to sit at home, fix you dinner and 'not work'. Give up her career and her life just to cater to you. Pluueeze!

Deborrah
Deborrah moderator

@ClayChilde

That is where you are wrong. When a woman would dare (as I do) call you alleged “MEN” out on your babyish ways, your need to dominate and control and destroy women’s spirit in order to feel powerful and masculine, YOU throw a tantrum. You are the weak one at this party, resorting to name calling and character assinations in an attempt to win. You will never win an argument with me. Ever. No man will. You all don’t think fast or deeply enough on any subject to compete with me intellectually.

Secondly, there is nothing masculine or manly about a male that needs to stand on a woman’s head in order to feel tall and like he is something. That male is weak. Real men agree with me and hate punks that act like you do.

I really don’t care that you come and throw a tantrum. Your immaturity merely reinforces my belief that male weakness and a need to attack and demean women in order to regain your sense of strength is the tool of the weak man. You wield it well.

There is no hatred of MEN here, however there is disgust of males suffering from BITCHASSEDENESS SYNDROME, running around masquerading as men, demanding to get the benefits and treatment of men, demanding to be acknowledged as something they ABSOLUTELY ARE NOT by women.

As I said above (but you don’t seem to get it)… the word ‘femininity’ is a male defined term. Women do not have to limit themselves or present themselvess as soft, weak, or incapable to fluff up your ego and make you feel like the big man. Feel like a big man on your own dammit! Stop depending on women to define you as a man! Damn! Can’t you alleged MEN do anything without involving a woman in it?

You want women to be weak, powerless and fluffy so you can own power, strength and anything firm so you can ‘feel like a man.’ You types enjoy women that you can roll your eyes about and make jokes about how silly they are and how much they need you. For you the opposite of what is feminine describes your masculinity. Unless a woman is weak and stupid you cannot feel like a man and that worries you. When you see a woman that refuses to be labeled and pigeon holed by your standards you feel extremely threatened and wonder if you truly ARE a man after all. But instead of working on yourself, you come to MY website and attack a person you know absolutely nothing about. It never fails that you knuckleheads always resort to asking about whether a woman has a man and what her sex life is like as if that makes her successful in life and gives her credibility to speak her mind. Kiss my ass. You don’t get to define me, my sex life or my work. Neither do you get to put me into the cage you want me to be in. I do what I want to do, and say whatever the hell I want to say. I’m grown.

You are a loser of the most immense proportions. It’s hard to imagine that a woman would even look at you, let alone date or marry you. Such a loser. Go stew in your own pot of bile. There is no woman in the world of intelligence that would ever listen to an idiot like you.

Deborrah Cooper
Deborrah Cooper

Tricia, the point you miss is that this is MY website, and when I write an article it contains MY thoughts, MY ideas, MY values, and MY opinions. You don't have to agree - the web is a big place and you can start your own website and fill it with YOUR thoughts, YOUR ideas, YOUR values and YOUR opinions. Here, mine reign supreme. :D

I am not trying to make other women do anything. You must believe I have amazing power over people if you truly believe that one person, me, in cyberspace has that much influence over the minds of millions of women! But its flattering that you believe my pen wields such power which means you feel threatened and insecure about your position, otherwise you would not be offended and upset by someone with a different stance.

Women can be whatever they want to be, whatever suits them. What I am saying here is that only weak men insist that a woman be submissive to them so they can stand on her head and feel high, mighty and powerful.

But hey, if you are a woman that doesn't mind playing third string to a man and his ego, that's your red wagon. I however, cannot in good conscience advocate that any woman treat herself that way.

KieranFoley
KieranFoley

Your opinions don't exist in a vaccum. If you write something someone finds offensive, whether it's your site or not then the accused are likely to attack you. Women deserve to be respected and treated as equal with their values and requests taken seriously, just as mens opinions are. This doesn't however mean that it's the right of either party to not expect repercussions for what they have said. When you say things like "I don't worry about pleasing other people. It's my site and I write to please myself. I don't know you so I could not, even if I tried, care less than I do right now about your thoughts on the matter" it gives the impression that you only really care about yourself. It also gives the impression that you are perfectly happy offending people about their personal choices in life. This irresponsibility and self righteousness is exactly why there is oppresion of any kind exists in the first place.

Deborrah
Deborrah

Obviously you are one of those people that thinks women should be submissive to men. Otherwise you would not be so huffy about my opinion on the matter. We all converse here and have a wide variety of opinions, as is common on the Internet. I will never agree with anything that has men believing they are superior to women for ANY reason. Now if you lose respect for that, have at it. This website is visited by hundreds of thousands of people per month. Nothing they read here is going to make everyone happy, I can guarantee you that!!! But I don't worry about pleasing other people. It's my site and I write to please myself. I don't know you so I could not, even if I tried, care less than I do right now about your thoughts on the matter.

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