Black men and dating: Who should pay for dates?

| 04/24/2012 | Comments (58)

My father taught me that black women have low standards for men. He used to talk about it all the time. The modern black woman lets men be pimps. Men don’t have to be men to get their time, attention, bodies, babies out of them, nothing. He thought it was shameful and scandalous and taught my brothers to be REAL MEN and taught me to not let a man treat me in any way other than that of a REAL MAN. My buddy Tracy countered with:

“Low standards? Try NO standards! If they couldn’t collectively get away with it, they wouldn’t do it. There are a gaggle of desperate women, looking for a warm carbon based life form in the shape of a “man” that will go without her basic needs to support him. For what? Some D? I have NEVER had D that good that I will support or even buy LUNCH for! Dream bigger girls, good men are out there, broaden your horizons!!”

When I speak or write about these things, I am kicking it old school REAL MAN style. These modern punks are not REAL men, they are wanna bees. They talk about manhood but they have no real concept of what that is. They want women to GIVE it to them, when in reality, men manifest their manhood, independent of a female.

Men need to be confident and secure. When a man is always seeking approval of a woman, he is neither. Women cannot relax into any sort of ‘submissive’ role when she is constantly monitoring what her man does or says for cracks. Is he really gonna come through? Is he going to do what he said he was going to do? Is he going to have my back or abandon me to do everything myself? Is he going to stand up for me and our family? Is he going to pay the bills and keep a roof over our head? Is he a man of his word that I can trust will handle things even if I am sick or dead?

All of that starts with him from day one PAYING FOR THE DATE. His willingness to step up to the plate demonstrates that he understand his place in society and that he deserves and respects the title of MAN. Otherwise, he is just a punk trying to weasel and whine his way into somebody’s panties.

Many black women have a fear of being obligated to a man, or of him expecting something that she is not willing to give. In reality, paying for a date does not entitle a man to anything, and there is no reason to fear his desires.  Yet, many African American women think as Sandra does about dating:

“I think expecting a man to pay for a date gives him power (even if only in his mind) he doesn’t deserve. That is just my thinking. When you have a say in finances you have a say in what you do and on what level you do it. It starts in the beginning… Plus are we dating to get to know someone or just milking them for a night out?  I think I have an issue with that(men spending a lot of money on me and we are just dating) I don’t want you to do anything for me I can do for myself.”

Why do so many black women insist that they can go it alone and don’t need anything from a man? Dating is not about needing anything anyway – its about allowing a man to treat you like a lady and show you a good time. When a man pays for the date, he is courting you – good, old-fashioned courting. He presents himself at his best and allows you the opportunity to view him as a suitable romantic partner. Some guys may make the cut, and some may not. That is what dating is about, spending time with a man checking out his personality, conversation, goals, life experiences, morals and values, and what you two may have in common. But a date does not obligate a woman to do anything after that. It is just a date.

My key point is that a man paying for a date does not have to be an expensive venture. A very nice date can be coffee at a local coffee house, listening to free spoken word or music. But the man should pay for dates. A coffeehouse date is less than $10 and he’s done! Why is that so difficult? He can determine from $10 or even less… probably $6 whether he wants to see a woman again and if there is any chemistry. Save the expensive dinner dates for a woman you KNOW you have some chance of something more developing with.

To me there is no debate. If he does not want to pay, he will never see me again. If more women had a similar attitude, more men would step up to the plate. Black women spend too much time and energy ‘helping’ and ‘supporting’ and ‘taking care of’ and ‘helpmeeting’ black men right out of their manhood. Black men want to be treated like men … respected and admired as such which means they need to step up. You cannot complain that a woman emasculates you when she takes charge and makes decisions, but you are happy and have no complaints when she assumes a leadership role when it involves your wallet.

No, you get to PICK JUST ONE! This is the game that black women do not recognize is being played on them. Men should not get to flip back and forth across the fence when its convenient for them. You fellas are either the man, or you are a bitch made he-motional he bitch and you let a woman pay.  Don’t say anything when she doesn’t respect you as a man and sees you as nothing but a punk. You did that to yourself.

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Deborrah

Veteran social researcher, relationship advice columnist, author and radio host. Author of hundreds of articles on American and black culture, gender issues, singles, dating and relationships. Author of "Sucka Free Love!" , "The 24 Types of Suckas to Avoid," "The Black Church - Where Women Pray and Men Pray," and "Why Vegan is the New Black" all available on Amazon.Com. Her unique voice and insightful commentary have delighted fans and riled haters for 20 years. Read her stuff on SurvivingDating.Com and AskHeartBeat.Com.

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Comments (58)

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  1. CaliforniaLA says:

    Women should at least pay for dates every once in a while to make the man feel good. It really makes a woman look very selfish and entitled if she never does anything for the man and expects the man to do everything for her.

  2. zipporah says:

    I believe many bW think they could do it alone because their MOMMAS raised them that way, and if she is darker, she is more likely to be that way unfortuantly—MEN HAVE TO PAY FOR DATES! or else he is a PIMP in a way.. Years ago, some men were ‘chauvinest’ () but they may have looked ahead; if women could do everything a man could do, what is the use for them–men still dont have a uterus, etc.–so some learn to ‘PIMP’ them….(get a women who has a higher education so you could lay around and play video games, etc.)

  3. Razzy says:

    LOL at xDashx who came on to try rescue his little buddy blackCeasar

  4. xDashx says:

    The point of dating for a man is to have sex with a woman (and maybe lead onto something more), and because there are so many promiscuous women nowadays (something this site would champion which is great) who will give it up even without dates, there’s no real need for men to spend extra time or money on confused women who are feminists one minute then 1950s traditional women the next when its comes to female privilege. 
     
    Like Dave Chappelle said the ‘pussy stocks have plummeted’. lol
     

    • Deborrah says:

      This site does not advocate promiscuity. Where did you get that from? We merely acknowledge that folks are grown and are going to do what they want to do. We do however advocate that a woman that makes that choice not apologize to anyone about her decision and not allow anyone to berate or guilt trip her about her choices. THAT is what we advocate here, so don’t get it twisted.

      We also advocate that a woman understand the mentality of silly men that have a 1950s mindset about women. Though black men especially want the 1950s wife, they want 2012 premarital sex. In other words, they want everything their way. We promote that if a man wants a 1950s style relationship that he pay for dates like a 1950s style man and that he not be given any 2012 pre-commitment sex. Sex someone else if you must ladies, but THAT man is kept on ice until he makes his desires for a woman and his own behavior match up. If he does not, you haven’t lost anything because you never let him in on that level.

    • Deborrah says:

      @xDashx This site does not advocate promiscuity. Where did you get that from? We merely acknowledge that folks are grown and are going to do what they want to do. We do however advocate that a woman that makes that choice not apologize to anyone about her decision and not allow anyone to berate or guilt trip her about her choices. THAT is what we advocate here, so don’t get it twisted.
       
      We also advocate that a woman understand the mentality of silly men that have a 1950s mindset about women. Though black men especially want the 1950s wife, they want a 2012 wage earning wife, and 2012 premarital sex. In other words, they want everything their way.

      We promote that if a man wants a 1950s style relationship that he pay for dates like a 1950s style man and that he not be given any 2012 pre-commitment sex. Sex someone else if you must ladies, but THAT man is kept on ice until he makes his desires for a woman and his own behavior match up. If he does not, you haven’t lost anything because you never let him in on that level.

      • xDashx says:

        I think alot of men including blackcaeser and myself have come to terms that women (or men) is not going back to the 1950s, (the career driven, strong, independent movement amongst women has taken off) they may try to but it not happening, the toothpaste is already out the tube and it cant be pushed back in. 
         
        Sex is freely available from and abundance of great women without having to go on several dates or consistently pay for a woman’s company, women are alot more liberal when it comes to sex and promiscuity is high (between both genders). So men don’t have to waste extra money and time pursuing women who purposely make you wait, sometimes without delivering.
         
        I slept with my girlfriend the second time we hanged out (could have done it the first time), and she paid for everything that second time we met up, she’s a feminist and has the the RIGHT idea which is being EQUAL! time to leave the old fashioned values behind or get left back.

        • Razzy says:

           @xDashx “I slept with my girlfriend the second time we hanged out (could have done it the first time), and she paid for everything that second time we met up, she’s a feminist and has the the RIGHT idea which is being EQUAL! time to leave the old fashioned values behind or get left back”
           
          You are most likely not the man she plans to marry.  Women can and do enjoy jump off situations just like men.  That’s what you men can’t seem to comprehend.  A woman who isn’t looking for a husband is perfectly fine sexing you up and paying for it.  But when she is ready to get married, you will be put on the nignore shelf because she already knows that you are not what she considers husband material.  Just like men judge women as being wifey material women do the same thing. 
           
          Women can sleep with men and enjoy it for how long it lasts, but not every woman wants to marry the guy they sleep with.

        • Razzy says:

           @xDashx “Sex is freely available from and abundance of great women without having to go on several dates or consistently pay for a woman’s company,”
           
          The article is talking about dating, not who you are sexing up.  You’re the one who came here to say that the reason you date is so you can get sex.  You are not dating for anythiing more than to get some azz.  Do you tell women this up front?  Do you let them know that you only ask them out in order to get some azz? 
           
          We are talking about dating that leads to relationships that eventually leads to marriage if that is what both people want, not some dude who uses women only to get sex and is too broke and cheap to pay for it.  And acts entitled to azz just because he wants it and takes a woman out.  All a woman means to you is a piece of azz,. Now if that’s all a woman wants from you is some dyck, then cool. Like I said, women like sex and want it too.
           
          But this article is about dating and relationships, not scoring like a teenager.  Eventually men grow up and realize there is more to life than how many women you can get azz from and how cheap can you get it.  Those who never realize this get passed over anyway by women who are looking for relationship, husband and  father material material.

    • Razzy says:

       @xDashx Well since most brothas are broke anyway, they can’t get no sex.  And if they get sex from desperate women who are trifling enough to have fools like you for a sex, then that’s on them.  A decent woman who has it going on would never want to be with males like you. 

      • mguev says:

         @Razzy I dont see this happening. Most BW will front and tell you, if she deems you as “friend material” or a square for example, she has to trust you, know you, etc in order to so you can go out with her or go “further”…but most give it up to what a “square or friend”-type of guy will always consider a looser or lowlife-type of guy, Black women over decades and cultural conditioning have accepted “their men” (not that this is a reality, but it’s a stereotype in Black communities/families/media, that most BW do grow up believing BM are lowlifes) are not breadwinners, are not the men society upholds, e.g. it’s hard out there for a black young male to advance in life in most urban zones. So BW have stepped up and become the workers, the ones who function most in society in the duality of the BM-BW relationship. Black women accept it. I have seen it in my front of my own eyes and have heard it–a black women will tear down “N****” left and right verbally but whenever a “square or uppity/uncle tom person” disrespects black men or black people as a whole she will side with her race, accept all the negative as a positive as a defense mechanism. This is the reality, most BW believe BM are below them, but historically in American society, BW has accepted conditions below desired standards through out history. I don’t see this changing. So often, you see black women reach their 30s, having stood by men who were “the hardest and toughest G they knew in the hood/my life..my man” who she only thought so high of for all the wrong reasons…he was having babies with all the hood girls, bossing them around, around entourages of “thugs”, what their world defined as the alpha males…sad

    • Razzy says:

       @xDashx Women’s pussy never plummets because dudes always value it. They will fight, kill and pay for the pussy that they desire.  So stop the nonsense. If it ‘s some pussy you really, want that doesn’t you want you.  You will be the one somewhere feeling bad and rejected. 

    • Razzy says:

       @xDashx There can’t be promiscuous women without promiscuous men.  See how quick you are to label women but give men a pass for the same behavior.  If pussy plummets because it’s so easy to get, (according to you)then dyck plummets as well because we all know women can get a dyck without even trying.   But it’s not about getting merely ‘any dyck or pussy. It’s about getting the dyck and pussy you really want, desire and value.

    • blackcaesar says:

       @xDashx The point of dating for a man is to determine whether that woman is compatible with him for marriage.  Now, I agree with you that there’s no real need to spend extra time or money on women who will give you sex for free.  But, from just observation this is not the way to go.  If you just want sex, then just pay a prostitute.  There’s no baby momma drama, no crazy cheating issues, there’s no child support issues, none of that.  Ass is really cheap!!  I mean women will be selling their asses for $100, $80, $60, even as low as $50.  I mean you’ll have to get up and go over there (incall special), but either your hand or the internet is going to be your best friend when it comes to satisfying your sexual urges, unless of course, you are in a functional loving monogamous relationship.  But most relationships that I see, particularly for Blacks, are not like the aforementioned.  And I don’t think that Deb’s website is encouraging promiscuity. I am though, if you’ve just got to have sex and that’s all you want and your not in a monogamous relationship.  I think Deb’s website is about fostering understanding between Black men and women so that we can form long-lasting committed loving monogamous relationship.  I think that Deb comes from a highly functioning family in which she saw a good marriage and the dearth of like Black marriages in today’s world bothers her.  Deb, although I don’t always agree with her, is on the whole a force for good.  Last tip, if you ever take my advice about patronizing a prostitute is to wear a condom.

      • Razzy says:

         @blackcaesar  @xDashx “If you just want sex, then just pay a prostitute”
         
        That’s just the thing, most black men are too cheap to pay a prostitute and most men don’t want ‘just sex from any woman.   They want it from the woman that they desire and asked out on a date because they are attracted to her and she turned them on.  But if they don’t fit the bill and don’t pass the muster during the dating (weeding out process) they will not be getting ‘her azz’ so they might have to settle for their hand or paying a prostitute.  Which is why when fools like xDsashx says that sex has plummeted I just laugh.  Men will always value and desire sex from the woman they want it from. No matter how many prostitutes they get, they still will not be satisfied because they aren’t getting the azz they really want.  So when he’s around his buddies, and they ask him did he get with this woman he was jonesing for, what is he going to say.  Nah, man, I had to use my hand or go to a prostitute, and then he’ll get laughed at by his buddies. 
         

        • blackcaesar says:

          Yeah, I think your probably right about that “most black men are too cheap to pay a prostitute”.  That’s too bad because a lot of times they end up a paying a lot more money out through child support or just lose peace of mind because his baby momma’s constant trying to get in touch with him about money.  I can only speak for myself, but when I check Seattlebackpage.com under escorts I see a lot of attractive women.  Now granted, there are always competing visions as to how most men want to live their lives.  I mean there’s always that vision of the one and only woman that they want to have in their lives as a wife or significant other and there’s that Hugh Hefner just live for ass or “trickin your life away” vision as I believe Deb’s father put it.  As for the price of vajay-jay, I’m in agreeance with both of you on that.  I mean straight up sex is cheap.  If you don’t believe then go to your city’s backpage and see for yourself.  The price for Black women is actually the most economical I’ve found.  White chicks be wanting $200 far more often than the sisters.  But then I see your point to that men will always value and desire sex from the woman they want it from.  But physically, unless they don’t ejaculate, they can be satisfied with prostitutes.

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar I wouldn’t know what the price of sex is because I’m not a prostitute and have never engaged in prostitution nor do I need to pay for sex.  You talk about the price for black women as if all black women are lumped in one category and are available for you just because you want them.  You act as though you can access any black woman you want and afford her and she is cheap,, when you and I both know this is not the case.  All black women are not equal nor available to you.  The only black women who are cheap, are the ones you can get and afford.  A man can satisfy his hunger with poor quality hamburger meat, but that doesn’t lessen nor satisfy his craving for top shelf steak that is beyond his reach and his availability and he can’t afford it.  People ‘settle’ for less than what they want in life all the time, but ‘settling’ for something does not satisfy your desire for what you really want.

      • xDashx says:

         @blackcaesar You don’t have to pay a prostitute there are plenty off women available who are single, and with the right game and charisma you can have your pick.
         
        The point is men dont have to follow the silly traditional rule off men always paying for dates, it seems outdated in era where both men/women work, both can contribute and there are lots women who will comply with this. The ones who dont you can drop kick their ass to the curb.
         
        The stock market is flooded with pussy, which drives the cost of it down, (as Chappelle pointed out lol) which you can also get for free, so spending extra money on a particular woman who makes you wait whilst having sex with someone else on the side (as Deborah confirmed in her comment) is pointless.
         
        In terms of a monogamous relationship find someone who is on your level, and ready to be treated like an equal and step up to the plate instead of catoring to a shallow entitled drama queen who moans about men not paying for dates. 😉
         

        • Razzy says:

           @xDashx  @blackcaesar 
          Dashx the only woman who is on your level are those desperate low self esteem having woman who would settle for a trifling male like you rather than attain better for herself.  And you would settle for her because that’s all you can get.  Any other woman is out of your league and way above your level.  And even the stupid desperate women will wake up sooner or later and grow tired of ‘your game’ and want to be treated like a lady instead of like a cheap jump off.
          Men want women to settle for sub par behavior while they act entitled to and demand women to give them their all. 

        • Razzy says:

           @xDashx  @blackcaesar 
          What is interesting is that black men have different standards when it comes to women.  If it were a white woman who expected men to pay for dates, black men wouln’t say a word. They’d be so happy to have their beckys that they would shell out all kinds of cash.  But let a black woman expect  black men to pay for dates, and you get trifling cheap fools like you and black ceasar whining about it. 
          Like i said earlier, no matter how much pussy if on the market, that doesn’t  mean you have access to it all or that the pussy wants you.  So you settle for bottom of the barrel pussy because with your nasty funky attitude towards women, only desperate women would want you.  meanwhile quality women, who you really want, pass you on by.
          So to make yourself feel better, you convince yourself that they aren’t desirable. It’s called sour grapes. 
           

      • Razzy says:

         @blackcaesar  @xDashx “The point of dating for a man is to determine whether that woman is compatible with him for marriage”.
         
        One more point, I wanted to make.  Therein lies the crux of the dating issues. Your wording says it all.  The man seeks to determine whether the woman will be compatible ‘with him’.  This translates into she has to fall in line with ‘whatever he has already pre-determined to be the guidelines and ideas he has for ‘his marriage’.  So in reality the man that thinks this way is dating to find a woman that is all about ‘his wants and needs’.  He could really care less about her thoughts, desires, what makes her happy,.  When I was dating, it wasn’t about finding out if someone was compatible with me for marriage. For me, that was too much pressure to put on strange men I didn’t know.  It was for me to get to know them and for them to get to know me and to see if we get along and have fun together.  We took it one step at a time and saw where that led.  Baby steps one at a time is my motto.  A lot of men tend to have pre-set ideas for how they want their marriages run, with women playing a certain role, so if any woman doesn’t fall in line with their preconditioned ideas, he writes her off and can potentially write off a possible fun date.  Dating is not about marriage, that’s too big of a jump, it is simply about getting to know someone and going from there.

        • blackcaesar says:

           @Razzy  @xDashx Well of course it’s about determining whether you can have fun and enjoy each others company.  That’s a part of being a compatible partner for ultimately marriage or at least a significant other kind of relationship.  Nobody seeks out a person that does not fuflfill their wants and needs.  Nobody continues to spend time with someone whose company they do not enjoy.  I think that women tend to be more guilty of “not playing it by ear” with regards to considering men for dating.  What I mean is that if a guy doesn’t have this checklist of stuff, then they won’t even consider him.  Men tend to be more flexible and open-minded.  Look at Black men.  Black men in 2010 married outside of the race at 22% of all Black men that married.  That’s because Black men are more willing to think outside of the box with regards to dating.  Black women our rigid to me with respect to their dating options.  As for pre-determined guidelines and ideas for a marriage partner.  Look, when you were out dating, you weren’t spending time with drug dealers were you?  The problem with Black women I think is that they don’t have any pre-determined guidelines and ideas for not even marriage partners but men that they are intimately involved with.  It seems that any old warm body will do for a lot of women.

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar  @xDashx 
          You love to talk about what women think as if you are a woman.  Your true colors have come out.  You’ve done nothing but put women down in an effort to shore up men throughout your posts.  It’s insidious but it’s there.  Every woman has a right to have a ‘checklist’ of expectations in a man.  Men should at least come to the table with the basics in place – job, career, finances in order.  But black men can’t even do that.  They are full of excuses and give themselves pats on the back if they are avoiding negative irresponsible behavior.  They think they are worthy based on what they are ‘not doing’.
           
          If they aren’t in jail, not a druggie, not a baby daddy (at least a multiple baby daddy), and have a H.S. diploma, then they are a viable candidate for dating.  They have such sub standards for themselves, that they think any woman who expects more of them than what they are ‘not’ doing is expecting too much. 
           
          Black women just like black men are at different places in their lives.  A black woman in her 20’s to late 20’s maybe is not thinking about marriage.  Just like men want to party, sew their wild oats and have a good time, she does too and she should. But when black women are ready for marriage, then they do change their mindset and look for a man who she thinks fulfills what she is looking for in potential husband, father and provider for the family.  A broke man who doesn’t have his finances together will get passed over by a woman who has her ish together.  Why should she settle for some dude who brings less to the table than she does.  She shouldn’t.

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  7. blackcaesar says:

    Hmm, I don’t agree with your evaluation of the importance of the man paying on the date.  I think your thinking is somewhat outdated.  You need to read the book “The Richer Sex” by Liza Mundy.  If anything, women (and particularly young black women) need to get habituated to carrying the financial load and dating is good practicing ground.  Women will not only be the primary breadwinners of Black families but of White families according to this book by Liza Mundy.  So, to some extent, it’s time to change and for women to give up their old out of date 1940’s-1950’s era thinking of the man that he should be the higher earner, slightly older, more established in his career, taller, better educated, etc….  Simply because already for women under 40 it is women who are better paid than men, and better educated than men.  I’m not saying men should never pay on the date, but your thinking is passe’.  It should be a more egalitarian-focused activity where the man should pay on the first date, and then the woman should pay.  Your thinking sets women up for failure, because it sends the message that men are going to be the primary or even sole breadwinner, and the latter of those things is certainly not going to happen for most Black women and or even for most White women.  The former is probably not going to happen for most Black women and increasingly unlikely for White women.  Women fought hard to become nearly 60% of the people earning college degrees, its’ time they start assuming the roles that men have in the past.  Your thinking doesn’t prepare them for that.  That question, “Is he going to pay the bills and keep a roof over our head?”  That question sounds like something out of some 1955 Lady’s Home Journal magazine.  Are you kidding me?  The actual question should be “Am I (the woman with the help of my spouse or as marriage becomes increasingly unpopular and single parent female families the majority in all of the U.S.) going to be able to pay the bills and keep a roof over our head?”  That other statement, “His willingess to step up to the plate demonstrates he understands his place in society and that he deserves and respects the title of MAN.”  Again, I don’t know what world your living in Deb, but in this one, the role of a man has been evolving from one where his manhood is equated with his wallet and what he can pay for to a more holistic definition that includes being not only a provider but a nurterer or even a man can be a man without a wife and children or a date for that matter.  A man’s place in society is not just about paying for stuff.  Your setting women up for failure.

    • Razzy says:

       @blackcaesar A black man who can’t pay for at least 3 dates is a broke mutha, who should not be on dates.  No woman should date any man that balks at paying for dates.  You BCeasar totally missed the role of what a man paying for dates means.  And like a lot of black men, you just come off as cheap and you said a whole lot of words to justify your unwillingness to pay for dates. 

      • blackcaesar says:

        Well, I agree with you that a black man who can’t pay for at least 3 dates is too impoverished to be dating, but I’m simply stating that the same goes for a black woman.  No man should date a woman who balks at paying for dates, because she is either selfish or it portends that she will be a poor provider.  The role of what a man paying for dates is to show that he can “step up to the plate” and be a good provider.  I didn’t miss the point, I simply stated that if some black woman or these days just about any woman links a man paying for all the dates and a man being a sole provider then she is living in the dark ages and needs to modernize her out-dated thinking.  If stating that I expect some reciprocity when it comes to paying the expenses for dates is coming off as  cheap, then I rather come off as cheap than a sucker.  Like some black men, you come off as a brainwashed “mangina” who was probably raised by some man-hating feminist who thus sides with women on all issues because your momma probably bad-mouthed your daddy and all men for that matter.  Women are always walking around talking about equality, well then pick up half the check once in a while.

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar  Only poor black men whine about picking up the check in dating.  Only poor black men link equality in dating solely to their wallets and what they pay.  Dating is so much more than that. 
          No body ever suggested that a woman never pays, but men do pay during the initial dating.  That is his role.  He asks a woman out,, he wants her time and company because he finds her attractive, he pays for dates, that is not outdated thinking that is the way that it is. 
          Now once they have been dating for a while, the woman can pitch in if she wants, pay the tip. Another tip is that dates don’ t always have to be the tired old dinner and movie.  Be creative on your dates.  Dates aren”t always about spending money to impress her.
           
          Take her to a museum (suggested donation entrance fee), suggest a picnic in a park.  Go on a nature walk, invite her with you when you walk your dog, invite her with you when you do volunteer work.  Let her into your world.
           
          Men who think dating is solely tied to their wallet and then balk and whine about equality in dating, need to stay their broke behinds in their homes and grow up.  Because they have a very limited viewpoint on dating and what it entails.

        • blackcaesar says:

           @Razzy You know, for all the effort Ms. Heartbeat put into writing this article you would think that this is a major issue when it comes to dating in the Black community.  Maybe it is, but it has never been for me, simply because 1. I go out on very few dates, and 2. I would never spend an uncomfortable  amount of money on a woman that I’ve just met and 3. I am a borderline poor Black man that takes your advice and stays his broke behind at home.    I’m a Black man who knows a lot of Black men and this really isn’t that much of an issue for them either.  Never the less, I’ve always felt like if two people really like each other then they’ll figure out a way to spend time with one another and not let the money issue get in the way.  Whoever asks for the date should pay for the date.  That only makes common sense to me.  I do find it interesting that a feminist like Deb adheres to such a narrow definition of manhood as “understanding his place in society” is paying for stuff.  It just seems like Deb is saying if a male pays for stuff then that = A REAL MAN.  If not, then he is less than a REAL MAN.  Not to badmouth her daddy’s advice/wisdom, but some of it just strikes me as being not applicable to modern times.  Most Black couples I know who are either married or living together, the woman earns more money.  So, in reality, SHE is the one paying the majority of the bills and keeping the roof over their heads.  All I’m saying is that if being the big provider is Deb’s idea of a REAL MAN and she’s putting that out there for young black women as the ideal, then given the realities of today’s work world, she’s setting a lot of Black women up for disappointment.  And to quote you Razz, “that is the way that is.”

        • Razzy says:

          @blackcaesar  “I go out on very few dates, and 2. I would never spend an uncomfortable  amount of money on a woman that I’ve just met and 3. I am a borderline poor Black man that takes your advice and stays his broke behind at home.    I’m a Black man who knows a lot of Black men and this really isn’t that much of an issue for them either. ”
           
          Like I said rinse, wash and repeat cycle. Only broke men whine and complain about paying for dates. All this other stuff you are bringing up is just rhetoric.  Bottom line is, your azz broke which means its probably better that you stay your azz at home and to make yourself better about your situation you try to flip the script and make it seem that a man required to pay for dates for women ‘he just met’ is too much. 

          Only a broke azz man would think like that. A man who has money won’t let that become an issue. So stop using paying for dates as a deflection from your light wallet. No woman finds a broke pitiful man attractive and if you are ugly on top of being broke, then women will see you as a double loser. Stop expecting women you want to date, to want to be with you when you have nothing really to offer them in terms of paying for dates. No matter how you slice it, that is the man’s role in dating initially, you pay for dates.  But since you can’t afford it, you console by trying to weasel and wiggle out of it.  So you and your friends are right to stay y’all broke asses at home lol.

        • Deborrah says:

           @blackcaesar The key words in your response are “married or living together” which is not dating. Once you are doing all THAT you have transcended dating and moved on into a partnership. However, on this site we deal with SINGLE PEOPLE which are those not living together and definitely not married. And yes, if a guy wants to get with you, he needs to treat you like a lady. That means he asks you out, he pays for the date, and he doesn’t whine about it. If he doesn’t ask you out and waits for you to ask him, he is not a real man. If you agree to go out with him and he wants you to pay half he is not a real man. There are some things that will never change, and a man paying for a date is one of them. He just has to pick a place within his budget but HE MUST PAY.

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar “I go out on very few dates, and 2. I would never spend an uncomfortable  amount of money on a woman that I’ve just met and 3. I am a borderline poor Black man that takes your advice and stays his broke behind at home.    I’m a Black man who knows a lot of Black men and this really isn’t that much of an issue for them either. ”
           
          The bottom line is this BC, you can’t base other men on your financial situation and that of your friends.  The man pays for dates, and any man who thinks differently should do just as you are and stay his broke behind at home.  During the dating process (Not relationship but dating), the man pays,, that’s the way it is.  You are confusing dating with relationship. At the dating stage the man pays.  And men should common sense enough to know their financial limits and adhere to them.  All this stuff you are bringing up about Ms. Cooper’s feminism is just deflecting rhetoric aimed at making you feel better about you inability to afford to pay for dates.  It’s like sour grapes.  Since you can’t afford to pay for dates, you want to make it seem as though paying for dates, is not what a man is supposed to do.  If money were not an issue, this would not even be a question.  There are plenty of men who gladly pay for dates and it is not a problem.  Like I said, only broke azz men are the ones whine about paying for dates because they can’t afford to. 

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar “Never the less, I’ve always felt like if two people really like each other then they’ll figure out a way to spend time with one another and not let the money issue get in the way.”
           
          You can feel that way if you want to  but it lowers your value in the dating pool.  The same way a woman who is fat or is a baby mama, it lowers her value in the dating pool.  Some of a man’s value is tied to his ability to provide and he demonstrates this by paying for dates.  You may not like it but that’s the way it is.  Just like men judge women on their cooking ability, looks, weight, women judge by men by how well they can provide. 
          And if you can’t then your value is lowered.  No woman with common sense wants to align herself with a broke man who already shows that money is an issue because he ‘aint’ got none’. But he still wants some azz and the benefits of being a woman. 
           
          Why would a woman be with a broke man who maybe nice to her, but he is broke when she can be with a man who isn’t broke and is nice to her?  I am not saying the man has to be rich either, but he is a man who recognizes that being a responsible provider is valuable to a woman and he knows that to demonstrate this, he pays for dates.

        • blackcaesar says:

          I agree that dating is about auditioning to a large extent, and of course for men that means showing that you can be a good provider.  I think a lot of Black women like being with broke men, because that way they can control the relationship.  I hear what your saying, but again, in my world and the people I know, the Black women are the primary breadwinners and seem to like it that way.  I’ve got a friend who lives with his girlfriend, in her house, and she earns more than twice what he does.  He told her that he wanted to go back to school so that he could earn more money and she told him that would mean he would spend less time with her.  Black women like to take care of Black men.  Now the answer to your question about why a woman would be with a broke man when she can be with a man who isn’t broke and is nice to her is so that she can control him.  A lot of women are insecure and having a man dependent on them financially makes them feel like he won’t leave her.  So, I’m simply saying from what I’ve observed it might be important for men to be good providers, but practically all the Black men I know are with women who earn more than them.  From this, I’ve deducted that amongst Blacks it might just be as important if not more important that women be good providers to up their value on the dating market.

        • blackcaesar says:

          I agree with all of that.

        • blackcaesar says:

          I’m on board with everything you wrote until you got to the part about deflecting Ms. Cooper’s feminism to make myself feel better about my inability to afford to pay for dates.  That’s silly because I don’t even spend that much on dates with women I’ve just met, so the money is not really an issue.  I’m not even trying to meet women for that matter. I’ve got more important things on my mind these days.

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar “‘Ive got a friend who lives with his girlfriend, in her house, and she earns more than twice what he does.  He told her that he wanted to go back to school so that he could earn more money and she told him that would mean he would spend less time with her.”
           
          Looks to me you have some lazy bums for friends who like to sit on their butts and let the woman take care of them, and like leeches they know just the type of desperate low self esteem having women who would do just about anything to get and keep a man…*shrugs* nothing impressive about that.  Not real men.Any woman stupid and  desperate enough to let a man lay up in her house and give him wifey benefits and take care of him, is a low self esteem desperate woman and definitely not a model for women with high self esteem who think better of themselves.  In fact Ms. Cooper did a video about those types of women.
          “Women Are Socialized to Please Men and Audition to be a Wife… WTF?’
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtiG8xBTj8&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL53C3DB1390D021D7
           
          A real men would already have his ish together.  He wouldn’t need to sit his sorry butt up in a woman’s house and live on her like a parasite.  His pride and sense of responsibility wouldn’t let  him do that.  But little boys running around in grown men’s body with nothiing to offer but a hard dyck know how to seek desperate women out who will settle for that situation. 
           
          BC”Black women like to take care of Black men.”
           In a partnership there should be give and take, the relationship should be symbiotic, not parasitic.  The situation you describe are two losers (and no matter how much money a woman can make, she can still be stupid and naive when it comes to her personal life and since society brainwashes women to think they are nothing without a man, a lot of (successful women) will jump on any man just to say they have one. (including sorry broke men who cannot provide.  If that woman gets sick and the money stops rolling in, (these gold digger types of men)  usually will be on to the next desperate woman who will have them.
           
          BC:”Now the answer to your question about why a woman would be with a broke man when she can be with a man who isn’t broke and is nice to her is so that she can control him.  A lot of women are insecure and having a man dependent on them financially makes them feel like he won’t leave her.”
           
          Men cheat on and leave women all the time regardless of the woman’s income.  While I do agree that it takes more than being a good provider to make a relationship work, the flip side of that (being broke and not able to provide is far worse. It’s not an either or that a woman should have to choose from. ideally a woman would be better off with a man who is dependable and fiscally responsible in the relationship and is willing and able to pull his weight as well as being nice to her.  You are attempting to paint a picture, that if a man makes money, he’s an a-hole and if he’s broke, he’s a more attractive prospect to a woman because she’s in charge.
           
          Again you are skewing things based on ‘your situation and that of your broke ass friends and to you the ‘abnormal is supposed to be normal and maybe it is in ‘your world’. 
           
          My parents raised me to date men who are responsible and can pull their weight.  Not to date men that I have to take care of like they are babies.  Just like I went out there and made a success of my life and can afford the things in life that I want,  a man can do the same.  Often men are lazy and give up and it’s easier to find a desperate horny woman to take care of them. 
           
          BC:”He told her that he wanted to go back to school so that he could earn more money and she told him that would mean he would spend less time with her”
           
          He shouldn’t have to tell her what he wanted to do, he should have already gotten off his butt to do it. He had no intention of doing anything, if he did, he would have already done it and she would have just had to deal with it.  And if he loved her, he would know how to balance school and his relationship in a way that keeps her happy. That dude was just running game.
           
          BC;’From this, I’ve deducted that amongst Blacks it might just be as important if not more important that women be good providers to up their value on the dating market.”
           
          No matter how much money a woman makes, a broke azz man still has a lowered dating market value.  Anyway you slice it.  Will he be able to get some azz?  Sure he will, Water seeks it’s own level and there are always women out there willing to jump through hoops to have a man on ‘his terms’. 
           
           
           
           

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar “That’s silly because I don’t even spend that much on dates with women I’ve just met, so the money is not really an issue.  I’m not even trying to meet women for that matter. I’ve got more important things on my mind these days”
           
          Since you are staying your broke behind at home, then apparently you aren’t spending any money because you don’t have any to spend lol.  And apparently money must be an issue to you because you are the one whining about how much of an issue it is and demanding that men shouldn’t be made to pay for dates.  If you have more important things on your mind than trying to meet women, why are you spending so much brain energy debating this issue, since you’re not dating and staying at home?  Your ‘actions’ contradict your words. If you really had other things on your mind, you wouldn’t be active on this topic and going back and forth with me. You’d be too busy with all those other ‘important things’ you supposedly have on your mind ‘these days’.

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar   So, I’m simply saying from what I’ve observed it might be important for men to be good providers, but practically all the Black men I know are with women who earn more than them. From this, I’ve deducted that amongst Blacks it might just be as important if not more important that women be good providers to up their value on the dating market”
           
          Women don’t NEED to be good providers, they just are because black men are not staying in school (women are), men are going to jail (women aren’t), men don’t see the value in education (women do). All those things lead to women having a higher wage earning capacity.
           
          And the bottom line is that there are some women, just like men, that want to have economic power. A high earning woman cannot be with a man like that because he wants a broke chick he can control, who will cook and clean and wait on him hand and foot. Same thing the woman wants. Alpha males and females are exactly the same. He has just run into a lot of alpha females which is how they came to be such high wage earners.
           
          Now down in the lower income areas of the black community where MOST BLACKS ARE, that is not how it goes and the women are into church and want a man to lead and take care of the family and be the breadwinner. But like I said in the NIGNORE video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLeD64KKW7M  this is a perfect example of how the lower income guy meets her needs whereas another guy doesn’t.
          The Higher income guy wants a woman he can feel better than and control, whereas she doesn’t want to be controlled she just wants a partner. Since she got rejected by the equal guy, it only leaves her with the guy that makes less. It’s a default choice, not her first choice.

        • blackcaesar says:

           @Razzy First of all I was never complaining or whining that men should not have to pay for dates.  I was simply writing that given the ways things are economically, that it would be unwise for Ms. Heartbeat to give women the feeling that because a man pays for every date that this will translate into a relationship in which he will be the main provider and/or sole provider.  I don’t always stay my broke behind home.  In fact, now that I’m working at the cultural heart of Seattle where there are two theaters I plan on seeing the play “Clybourne Park”.  Some times I go to concerts (like Sade/John Legend last Summer) and travel back East.  I recently spent $770 for dental school applications and plan on flying back East to talk with people on the admissions committee there in June.  I have money for the things that I deem important.  Surprise Surprise, not  too long ago on Valentine’s Day I treated a date to dinner at The Cheescake Factory that I met at church.  I stay my broke behind at home because that’s precisely what I like doing frequently and until recently was living off unemployment.    I’m a social scientist at heart and so issues that effect the Black community I take an interest in.  For example, I read the book “Is Marriage For White People” by Richard Banks and attended a lecture and book signing by the very same author.  I read the book “The Richer Sex” by Liza Mundy, because how the genders are changing in their interactions with one another simply interests me.  Recently, I read “White America:  Coming Apart” by the same author of that book “The Bell Curve”, I’ve forgotten his name.  If I wanted to meet women, then I would join Match.com or something. I’m fairly removed from the actual dating scene and really write as an observer as opposed to a participant.  Just because I write about this stuff doesn’t mean I’m actually living it and nor do statements of observation = my point of view necessarily!!  If you want my point of view, then ask me, as opposed to assuming.
             About my friends.  Well, one of them earns about $33,000 a year as surgical tech.  That’s the one who lives with his girlfriend.  He doesn’t lack ambition and he’s not as you’ve characterized him.  I must admit that I was against him moving in with her so soon, and kind of wondered whether he was preying on her.  My other best friend from childhood has assumed custody of one child whose his own biologically and another whose not from the same woman because she didn’t want to grow up and be a mother, and thus relinquished custody of them both.  They’re not losers.  They, like myself, are both trying to improve their lots in life. 

        • blackcaesar says:

          Is Razzy Deb and vice-versa?  I mean are you like Deb Cooper or what? I thought that Nignore video was done by Deb.  Anyway, I really didn’t like the LOL you added on to the part about me not spending any money because I didn’t have any to spend.  I find that to be mean-spirited and that’s terribly unattractive in a man or woman.  I don’t know, but maybe you think that your hurting my feelings by referring to “my broke behind” but your not.  You simply are coming off as not a nice woman.  Also, I may be monetarily poor but my spirit is strong and vibrant and my personality isn’t so fixated on money, as yours seems to be.  Also, you write about poor people as if there is something intrinsically wrong with being impoverished.  You need to get over yourself.  If your anything like most over-consuming, designer label-fixated middle class Black women then your just a couple of paychecks away from sleeping in a cardboard box.  Economic fortunes can turn on a dime lady.   Women do NEED to be good providers!!  You ought to read “The Richer Sex” by Liza Mundy.  Women are being forced into realizing that increasingly their incomes are not the supplementary income to the man’s primary income, but the PRIMARY income to his supplementary income.  Black men are not staying in school or attending schools of higher education, White men are not staying in school or attending schools of higher education, Latino men are not staying in school or attending schools of higher education  Univ. of North Carolina is 60% female and 40% male and that’s a majority institution.  Schools are failing boys and men of all races, except maybe Asian boys and men!!!  Black men often are going to jail because they are disproportionately targeted by law enforcement and ensnared in a vicious cycle of bad schools, fatherless families (often because Black men feel that if they can’t live up to the GREAT PROVIDER role they may as well not be in the picture), and an educational model that is better suited to the female maturity rate and brain really.  Black boys are disciplined and kicked out of school for minor infractions by females teachers and school administrators.  So, strangely enough, women are causing their own problem of what they perceive as a lack of suitable suitors.  I’m going to read your invevitable replies and then stop responding to you, because I don’t like you.

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar “You need to get over yourself.  If your anything like most over-consuming, designer label-fixated middle class Black women….”
           
          lol, then you turn right around and insult black women who have attained financial independence and can afford to buy the things they want, while at the same time whining because someone is calling you a ‘broke behind’. lol.. *figures*
           
          Then you give an excuse for why black men can’t achieve and stay in school and pursue educational resources and do better for themselves.  You seem to think they are supposed to get a pass because life is so hard (rolls eyes).  Typical black man always have to make it be about me, me, me.  Black women have it harder.  Not only are they treated in double standard sexist ways by black men and white men, they are also black women, so even with those double whammys working against them, they still manage to go to college, get an education and achieve in this racist world, while black men whine like a baby about the racism and cops.  Pluuueeze. 
           
          Excuse time is over dude.  Get over yourself.  While fortunes can turn on a dime (nobody said that they aren’t). The reason most black men are slacking is not because their fortunes turned on a dime, it’s because they never had any fortunes in the first place to turn on a dime.  They are sitting around like your friends, living off women and didn’t even bother to go to college and achieve anything greater for themselves in the first place.
          Save the sob story for someone who doesn’t know better dude. I’ve heard all the black men (held down under the foot of the white man excuses). 
           
          And as for black women providing, learn some history. Black women have been providing for their families for eons.  Stop believing TV life.  Black women have never had it like June Cleaver or those other 1950’s stay at home mothers. Black women have always worked outside of the home.  Always, they had jobs, as cooks, washerwomen, maids, even when black men couldn’t get jobs due to Jim Crow and extreme racism (After slavery). 
           
          But when black women were able to better themselves and go to college and achieve more than menial labor, many took advantage of the same opportunities afforded to them as afforded to black men as a collective.  It’s just that black men, don’t seem to want to invest in their long term future.  They can’t comprehend delayed gratification.. put hard work and effort out now, so you can reap rewards later.  Most drop out of h.s., and get a G.E.D. then go work at some menial job without even having tried to go to college.  This is why the rate of black men in college is so much lower than black women.  And since this is a black website with black dating issues, no need to bring up what white men are doing.
          Did you go to college, do you have a degree?  And advanced degree?  I did, both grad and undergrad with honors.  I own my own home, car, travel when I want, have my finances in order.  Can my fortunes turn on a dime?  Sure, but I would still be better off than someone who didn’t have the educational background and skillset that I have. 

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar “Black men often are going to jail because they are disproportionately targeted by law enforcement and ensnared in a vicious cycle of bad schools, fatherless families (often because Black men feel that if they can’t live up to the GREAT PROVIDER role they may as well not be in the picture),
           
          What a load of crock… Cry me a river and sing me the blues.  Interestingly enough it is the poor broke black fools who are the ones in jail throwing their lives away behind petty crimes.  Black men who have attended college and achieved some level of success avoid jail.  Look at our black president who was raised by a single mother and barely saw his black father.  Look at Deval Patrick, Gov of Massachusetts born and raised by a single mother on the South Side of Chicago.  There are many others.  Men who bounce do so, not because they can’t live up to being a ‘great provider, they do it because they want to skeet, make babies, spread their seed all across the planet and then run off without any responsibility.  It is sheer stupid silly immature and irresponsible behavior and laziness.  No excuses for that!
           
           
           
          Black Ceasar: “and an educational model that is better suited to the female maturity rate and brain really”
           
          Maybe if boys spent more time doing their school work and less time gangbanging, trying to get swag, and trying to sex up all the girls, then they would do better. If they put as much importance on school as the girls did, then they would achieve.  But boys are followers and most seek the approval of other boys.  So if one boy is trying to study and do well in school, he gets ridiculed by his male peers, so he stops in order to fit in. 
           
           Black Ceaser: “Black boys are disciplined and kicked out of school for minor infractions by females teachers and school administrators.”
           
          More excuses and drivel.  I don’t doubt that black boys have infractions, however black boys also do stupid things to get in trouble.  like trying to sex up the girls instead of concentrating on their school work.  (but to you that could be minor).  Why don’t you name some of these so called ‘minor infractions and then back it up with ‘proof’.
           
           Black Ceasar: “So, strangely enough, women are causing their own problem of what they perceive as a lack of suitable suitors.  I’m going to read your invevitable replies and then stop responding to you, because I don’t like you.”
           
          You have so many excuses for black men’s failure as a collective to better themselves.  No wonder black men are swimming at the bottom of the barrel.  Instead of pulling themselves up and overcoming their obstacles, like black women did as a collective.  All they do is sit around and whine and complain and expect a black woman to feed and take care of them like the big babies they are.  Is it any wonder that an educated black woman who has her ish together is single?
          She looks around and finds a sorry lot of an excuse for a man.  So the desperate ones who are willing to settle for a piece of a man (like the woman who is letting your friend live off her).  Will settle for anything just to say they have a man.   And I could give less than a damn if you like me or not. You are a stranger in cyberspace and I am not here trying to make friends.

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar “Why do you feel the need in this post to defend yourself and your friends to me?”  I’m a stranger in cyberspace.  Anyway nothing you’ve said about your financial lot in life and that of your friends has changed my mind about you and that of your friends.    A surgical tech?  why not be a surgeon?  Why didn’t your friend go to medical school?   Why feel the need to tell me your business? lol who cares?  It still doesn’t change the fact that you are broke and whining about paying for dates even though you denied it.
           
          Black Ceasar: “First of all I was never complaining or whining that men should not have to pay for dates”
          And you did complain about men paying for dates.  Go back and re-read your very first post.  It’s right there in black and white. 
           
          BlackCeasar: “Hmm, I don’t agree with your evaluation of the importance of the man paying on the date.  I think your thinking is somewhat outdated.  You need to read the book “The Richer Sex’ by Liza Mundy. If anything, women (and particularly young black women), need to get habituated to carrying the financial load and dating is good practicing ground.”
           
          BlackCeasar: “….  I was simply writing that given the ways things are economically, that it would be unwise for Ms. Heartbeat to give women the feeling that because a man pays for every date that this will translate into a relationship in which he will be the main provider/and or sole provider.”
           
          Where on earth did you glean that a man paying for dates = relationship?.  You lack reading comprehension skills dude Ms. Cooper said the following in her article:
           
          “When a man pays for the date, he is courting you-good, old-fashioned courting. He presents himself at his best and allows you the opportunity to view him as a suitable romantic partner.  Some guys may make the cut, and some may not.  That is what dating is about, spending time with a man checking out his personality, conversation, goals, life experiences, morals and values, and what you tow may have in common.  But a date does not obligate a woman to do anything after that. It is just a date.”
           
          You refer to one book and base all of your reality on it and it is a skewed misinformed viewpoint.   Black women have been working outside of the home since slavery time.  You have a skewed viewpoint based on ‘white TV and ‘white middle class family life, a lifestyle that most black folks especially poor black folks never had.. 
           
          And since you call yourself a ‘social scientist, and claim you read this one book on dating and what it says about women needing to get into the habit of carrying the financial load, you need to get a reality check and read “The Way we Never Were: “American Families and the Nostalgia Trap by Stephanie Coontz”.  Read the part about Black families.
           
           
           
           

        • blackcaesar says:

          The Black middle class is so fragile, and thus this includes Black women.  I would get over this sense of “I’m so far above the Black poor” that your posts convey.  For example, in the state of Maryland Prince George’s County is widely known to be the wealthiest predominantly Black county in the U.S. but it was second only to Baltimore Co. in the rate of foreclosures.  Another example can be found in academic performance.  P.G. County is the 2nd worse performing school district in the state to Baltimore, but it’s the most well-off Black county in the land.  Now about that consumer-fixated/designer label obsessed writing I did.  In my experience with middle income Black women there is this strain of materialism and fixation on designer labels.  That’s been my experience.  Shoot, I can say the same for a good number of middle class Black men, poor Black women and poor Black men.  Because Blacks have been accorded a lower status in American society, they tend to try to overcompensate by attempting to buy that status through material goods. Be that with Gucci or Coach bags or Spinners and high priced grills.  Call it whining if you like, but I’m just saying that I find it mean-spirited on your behalf to laugh at people whose material well-being may not be as high as yours.  If your parents really had done a good job raising you,  instead of enjoying some kind of perverted pleasure out of people’s lesser plight you would be sympathetic.  Doesn’t bother me  bit only in the sense that I pity your vapid personality and hope you grow enough as a person that your not so shallow.  Besides, I’m doing just fine.
               Black women have it easier than Black men because they are twofers.  They fulfill two quotas (minority and female) and are perceived as less threatening to white power structures than Black men.  Not only that but women are favored in this new economy, in large part because education in this country favors females.  The point of my bringing up that White and Latino men lag behing their female counterparts academically was to point out that Black men are not some odd bird that can’t fly.  For some reason, the educational system is failing males period, at least relative to their female counterparts.  Thus, it is reasonable to conclude that not only will Black women continue to be the primary breadwinners of Black families, but that they should be.  I’ve always thought, “Hey women have these kids, they need to be breadwinners”, because you know most marriages end in divorce anyway, especially Black ones.  I agree with your points about Black men NOT being able to delay gratification (I read somewhere that fatherlessness plays a big role in this), and not being focused academically.  I do believe that Black men collectively have the worst judgement of any group with regards to life’s more serious matters such as education and sex, with Black women coming in  a close second.  I don’t think the gap between Black male/female achievement is as wide as you think  is.  I see how you could say that I was making excuses for Black men’s failures, but never the less there’s more than a grain of truth to what I wrote.  I admittedly going into protective mode with respect to my brethern.  I am guilty as charged.
          Some how you took my writing about womens’ incomes becoming primary as opposed to complimentary to their husband’s income and came to some illogical conclusion that I thought Black women didn’t work in the past.  I saw the beautiful and talented Viola Davis in “The Help”.  My grandmothers use to be maids.  History is one of my favorite subjects.  I recommend the book “The Warmth of Other Suns” by fellow Bison Isabel Wilkerson.  Back when two parent Black families were the norm and not the exception, the man’s income was still somewhat higher than that of his wife’s income I believe.  I might be wrong about that.  Razzy, maybe you read another post but one of my friends has custody of both kids he had with this trifling woman (White woman by the way), which is an example of his poor judgement-not because she is white but because of her character, and he doesn’t live with or off the mother.  The other friend who is a surgical tech I guess can be said to be living off a woman, but what would you call it if a woman who earned significantly less lived with a man who made significantly more.  You see this is where I think we differ.  You call the man a bum, even in an economy that favors women.  But you wouldn’t call that women a bum.
          Why do you want to know if I’m a college graduate and have a graduate degree?  FYI I am a college graduate (Howard University, B.A. Political Science 1994) and I’m planning on attending dental school at Meharry next year.  Why do feel the need to tell me that you own a house, a car, have your finances in order, and travel?  F.Y.I.  I don’t own a house and don’t want to either.  I plan on being a career mitlitary dentist (GO NAVY) and traveling around the world.  I also don’t own a car and didn’t want to until recently when it had become apparent that I’ll be most likely attending dental school in a public transit-challenged part of the country.  My finances aren’t in order but I’m working on it.  I’m working on saving for a car in fact.  I travel a lot, if for no other reason that I move a lot.

        • blackcaesar says:

           @Razzy The Jenna 9.  The Jenna 9 is a fine example of an instance in which Black boys were disproportionately disciplined for their infractions.  It’s not only Black boys but Black girls.  I read that an 8 year old Black girl somewhere was handcuffed and put in the back of a police car because she was being disruptive in class.  Do you want to bet her teacher was a White woman.  I’m not a gambling man, but if I were, I would make that bet.  I don’t care what you write, but Black boys are seen as threatening by largely White female teachers.  In N.Y.C. public high schools Black high schools are patrolled by N.Y.P.D. and boys are getting criminal records before they’re even 18 because of fist fights.  I don’t know a whole hell of a lot about Black men who don’t stick around to be fathers, so I’ll just back off and agree with you about that.  I suspect that it is just plain immaturity and laziness and poor judgement to be correct.  Hey, I’m removed from the actual pathologies of which I write.  Remember, I’m that dude who reads books about Black underclass pathology not that dude who is actually living it.  I don’t have any kids.  Although I read this book “Fatherless America” last Summer and it put forth the idea that men who don’t live with their kids cease to even have the potential to be the best fathers that they can be.  So, in effect, if a man doesn’t get along with the mother of his kids, then his ability to be the best father he can be is severely curtailed as a non-residential dad.  Just a theory.  That “trying to sex up girls instead of concentrating on their school work (but to you that could be minor)”.  Well, again I agree with you.  Black males put waaaaaaaay too much emphasis on sex.  You know something funny.  I find that very sexually successful Black men are some of the most troubled individuals.  I write that because they’re always calling me regarding the problems they have in their lives because of their sexual activity or just I don’t know, being in intimate relationships with women period.  I was watching this ex-athlete Terrelle Davis last night on the Dr. Phil show and he was on their discussing his baby momma drama issues with Dr. Phil.  On a just personal level, I just don’t see what the hell is the big “whoop” about being intimately involved with women considering all of the stuff that comes along with it.  No, you’ve got the wrong dude if you think that I think boys trying to sex up girls is minor.  I mean I’m the age I am and don’t have kids because I abstain from sex for the most part.  This dude I met asked me why I didn’t have kids.  I straight up told him because, “I don’t have sex.” Sheeeeeeeeeit, all the problems my friends have.  I’m one of these people who sits back and observes others and see how whatever they’re doing is working for them.  I saw how an Uncle acted after drinking alcohol (he later died from cirrhosis of the liver) and I decided that I didn’t need to imbibe alcoholic beverages.
            Now, that stuff about educated Black women being disproportionately single.  Why don’t other kinds of presumably more successful White, Latino, or even Asian men pick up these available Black educated women for marriage?  You see this makes me think that there IS something about Black women period that makes them undesirable.  Something hard and steel beneath their surfaces that is unappealing to men.  You seem hard and I don’t know,um, bitter, like you walk around with a scowl on your face.  I don’t know what you look like, but I can just imagine you walking around with an expression on your face like your shoes are too tight and your bunions are bothering you!   Well, I care whether you like me, because as a Black woman I love you, and there’s nothing you can do about it!!

        • Razzy says:


           
          @blackcaesar “This dude I met asked me why I didn’t have kids.  I straight up told him because, “I don’t have sex.
           
          That’s what condoms and vasectomies are for dude.  It’s called having responsible sex.  Every sex act doesn’t have to lead to a baby.  Unless you willfully do everything to ensure that you make one.

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar “Now, that stuff about educated Black women being disproportionately single.  Why don’t other kinds of presumably more successful White, Latino, or even Asian men pick up these available Black educated women for marriage?  You see this makes me think that there IS something about Black women period that makes them undesirable. ”
           
          Why don’t other races pick up these black men in overwhelming numbers and marry them?  The majority of people still marry within their own racial and social and religious class of people Mr social scientist (one would think you would already know this.  Census data shows this.  Although interracial marriages is on the rise, it is still far below marriages of people of the same race.  Nothing new there.  And black women tend to be more loyal and desire to marry black men more so than black men being loyal and wanting to marry black women. Black men have been swirling far longer and marrying their beckies for the status forever, black women have been slow to jump on that band wagon.  But black women are desired by men of other races, black men just don’t want to think so. 
          And I thought you said you were no longer going to respond back.

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar Something hard and steel beneath their surfaces that is unappealing to men.  You seem hard and I don’t know,um, bitter, like you walk around with a scowl on your face. ”
          Black men love to use that tired old ‘she must be bitter word’.   YAWN.  Whenever a black woman challenges him, then she must be ‘bitter’.  The naive stupid woman who lets a man treat her any type of way what is she?  Is she bitter?  What is her self esteem like?  But the minute a black woman calls black men on their shyt, then she must be angry and bitter.  Get a new line dude, that one is old, tired, and more importantly plain old false.  A black woman is not bitter because she doesn’t go along with black men’s trifling ways and calls them on it. 
          And if a black woman is angry, then so what.  Look around, she has plenty of reasons to be angry. Black men are failing them in droves.  Dropping out of school, going to jail, ho hopping around, treating black women as a collective like shyt.  But still wanting some azz.  Black men as a collective don’t have too much going for them, and black women have had to be both the man and the woman in these relationships.
           
          You say black women have this ‘steel surface that is unappealing to men.  Well when black men get a backbone and stop mooching off black women as a collective then that comment might have merit.  Take your mooching friend for instance.  Living off a woman and not really doing much with his life.  He represents how most black men are.  In the pool of eligible men, most are where your friend is (and probably you too).  Few are at the middle or even top level of success.  They need a woman to help them with even a roof over their heads.  Then turn around and whine a black woman is too steely and too strong.  Well they are too weak. Black men need to Man up and stop shucking and jiving all the time.
          American black men are some of the laziest tired and trifling men. Even black men from other countries hold them in contempt.  I have black male friends from Africa and Jamaica that complain about how lazy and trifling american black men are, swinging on their mother’s and girlfriends dress tale like little boys who never grow up.
          They have an excuse for everything.  Living at home with mama and never owning a piece of property or doing anything for themselves.
           
          These black men come over here from another country and in a matter of a few years many are business owners and educated while American black men are still shucking and jiving and talking about the ‘man’ is holding him back. 

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar NYWAY, I’m done on this topic, it has been beaten to death and nothing else to say.  I can’t read through all your post. I don’t agree with you anyway so whatever dude.

        • blackcaesar says:

           @Razzy Well I would agree with you completely if my white roomate didn’t say the same thing to me recently about an overbearing loud-mouthed domineering Black woman at his job that was recently fired because she was difficult to deal with and unpleasant to work with.  I write the word completely, because I agree with you that my “bitter” line is old and tired and that Black women have a lot to be mad at with men because they are failing them.  There is no question whatsoever that African American men are underachievers in life.  Something you wrote that I really liked before about my friend was “Why didn’t your friend become a surgeon.”  I totally agree with you that Black men are not reaching high enough.  But then I can say to a lesser extent the same thing about Black women.  An example is this woman I last had a date with.  She told me that she had always dreamed about becoming a psychiatrist but the sciences scared her off.  I’ve found this to be true with the STEM (Science Technology Engineering and Math) fields and African Americans in general.  Actually there is a book that I haven’t read yet, but intend to titled “Opting Out” about Blacks at elite universities who are choosing majors that often are socially useful, but lower paying and that is contributing to the gap in wealth between even middle class Blacks and Whites.  Now my friend is doing something with his life.  Being a surgical tech at a VA Hospital with VA Benefits and I think he just got a raise and just bought a car is being pro-active in becoming a success in life.  Just because he lives with a woman that earns more doesn’t make him a moocher. If the shoe was on the other foot, then you wouldn’t call the woman a moocher.  And besides, if a Black husband goes to divorce court he’s likely to lose that house that you deem so important an indicator of upward mobility.  Sheeeeeeeeit a Black man who takes that BIG PROVIDER role too seriously are fools because historically Black men get the short end of the stick in the courts.  Haven’t you ever heard that song, “All my friends tell me I’m a fool, they say let the woman take care of you.”  Let me just say this about Black men from other countries.  ALL IMMIGRANTS are highly motivated and upwardly mobile.  Anybody who travels across an ocean for better opportunities is likely to be more dedicated to become success.  All I’ve got to say to you is “Would you want to live in Africa or Jamaica?”  Sheeeeeeeeeeit, African and Jamaican men who come here are leaving countries of DYSFUNCTION!  I give them credit for leaving a land and people who can’t get their acts together, but they don’t represent the avg. African or Jamaican. 

        • blackcaesar says:

          I’m not this time, or at least on this subject.  We’ve beaten this thing into the ground.  I’ll just say this in departing….. Black men may just be more likely to marry outside the race because they like those women and vice-versa.

        • blackcaesar says:

          Yeah I’m tired of reading through your posts too just to respond to them.  I’ve got nothing else to say either.  I agree with you about some things and not others.  Peace out!!

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar “Black men may just be more likely to marry outside the race because they like those women and vice-versa”
           
          Dude if you and your co-horts want to marry Becky by all means do so.  Black women could really care less.  It’s not like the black women would be missing out on ‘greatness’ here.  Becky is welcome to you and others like you.  You wouldn’t even be missed.

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar “Yeah I’m tired of reading through your posts too just to respond to them.  I’ve got nothing else to say either.’
           
          You’ll be back responding. 

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar “Well I would agree with you completely if my white roomate didn’t say the same thing to me recently about an overbearing loud-mouthed domineering Black woman at his job that was recently fired because she was difficult to deal with and unpleasant to work with.”
           
          Black men are some of the most sexist double standard fools on the planet.  If your white roommate had said, ‘black men are trifling, gangbanging drop outs who are stupid, can’t get a job, don’t go to college, stay in jail.  They are good for nothing shuffling and jiving fools, I wonder if you would agree to that.  Or would you present him with a whole bunch of excuses of ‘why the black man as a collective is failing to thrive in society’ the same way you do me. 
           
          But when white men bad mouth black women, rather than stand up for black women and defend them as a collective, your dumb but agrees with him and throw black women under the bus before a white man.  As if white men are without fault and NEVER display negative traits on the job.
           
          Yet where would black men be, if they didn’t have black women standing up for ‘their causes.  See this is why black men like you SHOULD go marry outside of your race.  As far as black women are concerned, you’re pretty much a useless oreo cookie traitor, who expects all this understanding and support when it comes to what directly affects black men, but then you have none for black women.  I wish you wouldn’t write back on this blog, you need to take your trifling views and be gone.

        • Razzy says:

           @blackcaesar  Stop trying to deflect and change what I said.  I said nothing about living in Africa or Jamaica.  I’ve met many Africans and Jamaicans and the ones I meet own their own business, have college degrees and are thriving.  I’m not talking about the state of their country. I’m talking about what they do when they come to America.  But see you have more excuses and deflections for American black men as a collective’s failure to thrive in their own country.  Sure we have trifling blacks from other countries in America, but the ones I’ve met and interacted with and the one’s I’ve heard about from friends and their friends and so forth are doing a helluva lot better than black men born and raised here and have family here from many generations.

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